Tamara Grominsky of PMM Camp on personal positioning

Episode 114:
Tamara Grominsky of PMM Camp on personal positioning


This is an episode for: PMMs, aspiring speakers and book nerds.

Molly Geoghegan, Narrative Strategist

Molly Geoghegan

Mar 28, 2024

What we’ll hear about:

  • How Tamara’s MA and start in publishing set her up to be a standout storyteller and award-winning Product Marketing leader.
  • Tamara’s emphasis on career intentionality and personal positioning.
  • “Write your purpose in pen, but your path in pencil.”
  • The ‘good time’ journal: Notice the activities that give you energy. 
  • Tamara’s path to speaking, including mentorship along the way from Oli Gardner who has a new company, Outline
  • First mistake most people make is to introduce themselves again. Don't do that! Come out on stage, start with a strong statement or question!
  • Does she use notes? Nope! “I just practice until I feel I can give the talk.” The day of, it’s all about amping yourself up.
  • Tamara’s process for building a new keynote.

What's in the Spice Cabinet??

Tamara’s reads:

Check out PMM camp!

  • A community built for (and by) product marketing leaders. Join the newsletter for camper connections!

Must eats in Vancouver:

Walkout song: 

Tamara’s closing quote:

  • “As much time and effort as you put into thinking about your company and your product and how you’ll position and sell that, I would say, try to put an equal amount into thinking of yourself as the product, and I think you’ll be pretty surprised by the outcome of that.”


Click here to see the podcast transcript

Michael Mioduski  00:21

Welcome back to presentation thinking the Storyteller's Study Club. My name is Mikey Mioduski. I'm the host and founder, CEO of ghost ranch communications, a presentation design agency, we hang out with a lot, a lot of b2b product marketers, we love them. They've been our clients for years and years, we respect their ability to come in, take super dense technical stuff, turn it into, like human speak, you know, things that would resonate with an audience. And we stumbled upon someone who does that exceptionally well and actually teaches other PMMs now how to do it even better at PMM camp. So Tamara Kaminsky, thank you so much for joining us. I know you've you've been working in product marketing and marketing in general for years. Super excited to have you on the show today.


Tamara Grominsky  01:07

Thank you so much for having me. I'm like really excited to be here. Heck, yeah. And


Michael Mioduski  01:11

where are you based right now?


Tamara Grominsky  01:13

Yeah. So I live in Vancouver, Canada, and we're very friendly up here. But we get a lot of rain. So there's trade offs.


Michael Mioduski  01:20

Yeah. I've been there. Once. It's gorgeous. I'm jealous. Yeah.


Tamara Grominsky  01:23

Welcome to visit anytime.


Michael Mioduski  01:25

I'm gonna do that. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, Tamara, why don't you tell us maybe like how you got into doing what you're doing? I can't imagine you dreamed of being a, you know, a b2b product marketer when you were a little bit maybe. So what did you want to be when you grew up? And like, what was your path here?


Tamara Grominsky  01:42

Yeah, that's a great question. I didn't even know it existed. So I was not dreaming on it. And to keep it the theme of the pod, so I love stories as a child. So I was an only child, which I feel like it's important context. And I spent a lot of time alone and reading. I'm a voracious reader, like you can see behind me, I have my bookshelf, it is not uncommon for me to read at least one book a week, even now as an adult. And as a child, I read even more. And so I kind of thought it would be a writer, to be honest, I was like, Well, that seems like a way that one might make money. And I've kind of recognized also, though, that fiction writers are novelists are probably not the most well off people. And it was a lot harder to get into. So I took the journalism publishing route. And so I actually did my undergrad in professional writing. And I did my masters in publishing, which is a very unique program, there's only like three of them in the world. And one of them happens to be in Vancouver, which was what brought me to Vancouver originally. And it was amazing, I kind of call it this MBA for creatives, essentially, we've learned how to identify, we literally learned product marketing, but we learned how do i dot identify the market opportunity for a story, whether that's a book or a magazine, or a digital property, whatever it might be, we learned how to write compelling copy, we learned how to edit, copy to make it more compelling. We learned design and how to present your ideas in the most compelling way. Like literally, we have a design book covers magazine covers. That's it, that's I thought I was gonna work in publishing. And I did work in publishing for a bit. But I actually had a course in my masters that was like a check publishing course, like, this was like 2008. That was like a thing that you have to have a course for around. And I just fell in love with this concept of I have an idea and a story. And instead of waiting, you know, 24 months to get the book out or six months to get the magazine out, I can think tell that story online today and get immediate feedback. And so that took me on a small pivot into digital publishing for a while, and then eventually into tech, and product marketing, which was like a very natural event, because I was like, well, these people tell stories. I'm telling stories.


Michael Mioduski  03:48

That's amazing. So then, what was your first landing spot? Like in business? I know you've worked at quite a few awesome spots. Yeah,


Tamara Grominsky  03:55

I went to my first product marketing role was at a company called Yellow Pages, like a phone book. Oh, yeah. So up until then, I had been working in digital publishing, basically, meaning I was working for online magazines, managing teams of writers and managing distribution of online content. And the yellow pages was actually taking all of their customers and moving them off of phonebook ads into digital products. And so I was hired to be a product marketer for one of their digital products. And they basically looked me because they're like, Well, you understand this digital world, but you also have the business sense from your masters. And so it was kind of the perfect melding, and honestly, I didn't know what a product marketer was, my friend happened to work there. And he referred me to the job because he knew I was looking for something a little bit more in business and tech. And so it was like, Oh, this seems like a really cool opportunity. So I started there, I was managing their, like ad tech, social ads product, and then I ended up staying there for four years. I worked my way up. I had four different portfolios of products by the end of the time there and my initial product that I joined for it we had, like 30 customers when I started and we'd grow that product line to over 15 million in annual revenue, by the time that product line alone, so it was almost like working at a startup myself. And I just totally fell in love with product marketing and the idea of Product Marketing. It's wonderful.


Michael Mioduski  05:15

And eventually, you decided to sort of forge your own path. Right. And I, I think I saw you, you know, a couple years ago, just on LinkedIn, sort of as like a b2b product marketing influencer. We finally met in London, I think, last November, and I got to see you speak. And I think we're about to see you speak here in New York at the PMM. Summit. And I think you're gonna debut something new. And I think it's a sort of in line with the route you've taken, which is like forging your own personal path. And you know, what personal positioning and branding maybe means. And can you go into that a little bit?


Tamara Grominsky  05:49

Yeah, definitely. So I pivoted into saps after working at yp, and really discovered that a lot of what product marketing meant in sacks or b2b software, is, it was talked about at the time, and it was very much of that old saying, like product managers put products on the shelves, product, marketers get them off the shelves. And turn that is true, it is our job to sell and market progress. But it was this idea of like there being a handoff point, and we only got to touch something when it was on it. And so I started pretty early in my career, just like having a different opinion, if that makes sense, contrary and opinion and in some times, and I just started talking about it, like I never set out to say I want to be an influencer or creator of a personal brand, I just said, I think something's wrong with the way that the world works. Right now in cloud marketing, I think there's a better way. And I want to, like put this out in the world to find like a magnet, the other people who also feel the same way as me. And that's led to some incredible opportunities, both working at some awesome jobs, leading some incredible teams, but then also being able to go onstage around the world, which was incredible. And building a bit of a brand on bottom line, right? And then at some point in your personal brand, you kind of want to take an audit and you want to say, is this reflective of who I am? Is this the brand I want to put out there, I will add two more intentionality to it. So the last few years, I've really been thinking a lot about what is the intentional story I want to tell when I talk about tomorrow, you know, and that's where personal positioning comes in. So my talk is really about how to define your path. And I love this sentence I have, which is basically like, right, your purpose and pen, but your path and pencil. And so I'm gonna be talking to folks a little bit about, like, get clear about where you want to go. But don't over index on that, you know, allow yourself to kind of navigate there. But as part of that, we really need to identify like, what is your next best step to get there, like, what's the next direction you need to move in. And that's where personal positioning comes in. Because if you cannot position yourself, either internally to get access to the right projects or promotion, externally to maybe get a new job opportunity, if you're interviewing, or even you think externally to get a speaking spot, or whatever it might be, yeah, you're never gonna stand out. And so I've been thinking a lot recently about this idea of like a personal positioning


Michael Mioduski  08:05

statement. Yeah, I think you and I have probably seen quite a few risers and followers, if you will, like, what are the traits of those PMMs, I guess, or anyone in business, but the ones who do sort of accelerate their careers and are able to, to insert themselves into the types of projects they want. What is it like, do they have to have? Clearly they don't have like, this is my mission statement. But yeah, it is, it's probably more about, like, intrinsically knowing it and then walking the walk to some


Tamara Grominsky  08:32

degree. Yeah, I think prizmah how intentional some people are. So I really believe it comes down to intentionality. And there is an element of like, luck, you know, that podcast, I built this. And he always asked at the end, and was your success dependent on your hard work or your luck, and most of the guests will say it's a combination of the two. And I'll leave that to be true. But the more I've spoken to successful people are, the more I've spoken to be and fulfilled people, which I think is even more important than this, like idea of success. Yeah, they are the most intentional people. And they do have they have life values written down, they have a purpose for their life written down, they have all of anti statements, but what they don't want. That's a bit much, right. And you have to be a certain personality to really lean into that. But the first step that I always tell people is like, do some self reflection. The people who excel the people who have projects that really fill their path, and allow them to be exponential in their work, are the people who've taken the time to understand what's my secret sauce. And by that, I mean like, what is the combination of my skills, my experience, and my like interests are passionate, because it's almost like the intersection of those three things where you're really going to be able to thrive. And so there's a couple of ways that you can do that. Like I love something called the good time journal. It's very rapid down little small exercise you could do with like a piece of paper and a notebook. But basically for about two weeks, you're gonna keep track of everything that you do throughout the day, so you would keep track of last time In this column, you have a client file next, maybe you're actually working on client work later in the day. And every time you're doing an activity you're going to tell you on right down, what level of energy do I have right now? Low energy or high energy? And how am I doing this? And the more specific you can get, the better. Like, if you're like, wow, recording this podcast was awesome. I was like, so high in energy, that you're gonna say, Well, what about it? Was it meeting someone new? Was it hearing someone's story? Was it learning and you're gonna try to get as specific as possible. And after two weeks, you're gonna start to see a lot of trends emerge about where you should be leaning in more, or where you can start to remove things to kind of feel a bit more satisfied when you do that, then that kind of start to sharpen your this idea of like, Oh, I'm great at this. Great. Now, how do I position that to others to get more of that?


Michael Mioduski  10:45

That's good. So I love the purpose in pen, path and pencil. Like, that's gonna be on a lot of quotes, like attributed to use that brilliant? What are some examples of times when you had to sort of like, bust out the eraser in that path? And like, why is it important to think you know, that you should be a little bit nimble when it comes to the the actual path?


Tamara Grominsky  11:06

Yeah, that's a really great question. So I would say like, I always, I've always been a very ambitious person. And I've always loved to high level accountability. And but I also one of the things that is a value for me in my kind of life value set that I have written down is this idea of, like, flexibility and freedom. And I always thought that like the best path for me to achieve all those things was for me to be like a CEO of a company, and flow for me, I was like, I'm going to be a CEO, like, that's my path, I'm gonna climb from director to B, P to C suite. And I did that. So I actually went VP product marketing. And when I was at Unbounce, I was the chief strategy officer. And I loved it, most parts of it. But I also kind of realized, oh, this actually isn't the path I want, like, there's less in this. When I got there, I was like, my, my secret sauce isn't being utilized the best that it could be. And so that was the time I actually had to do a lot of self reflect a lot of erasing, as you mentioned. And I realized that like, Oh, I think, to fully realize my potential that fully realized the life I want not just the career one, I actually need to step off the path that I'm currently on. And so that was where I kind of decided to start my own business, which is, as you mentioned, PMM camp. But you know, you can't just like go from starting an idea to having a business the next day that allows you to quit your job. And so I had to almost like carve out a new path. And I had to ask myself, okay, if now my end goal is to, you know, work for myself be able to work anywhere in the world whenever I want with whoever I want. What's the next best step for me to get there? And for me, I was like, great, I want to go figure out how the world's best creators built their businesses. So I went to Kajabi I got a job as the Vice President of Product Marketing there, because I loved the product. I actually knew people there, but I like this masterclass for me in exactly who I want to become. And I'm going to surround myself, every single day, I'm going to wake up and think about this and be so immersed in it that it's going to be impossible for me to fail. And within about 14 months of being at Giambi, I was able to quit and work on my own business full time. So it really is about that level of intentionality, though, because I could have easily said, Oh, C suite not for me. Yeah, go get another product marketing job to like, also work on my side business. But I set myself up to be successful there.


Michael Mioduski  13:17

It's smart. Yeah. Kajabi. So like creator economy, you've got like you're in that headspace. The persona has learned everything, like how to do it right, and then launch exactly


Tamara Grominsky  13:26

got access to so many incredible creators, where I can literally ask them questions that you would never be able to ask them without having access through a company like Kajabi. I


Michael Mioduski  13:36

feel like anytime I've been at a conference for where people, there's people in the room with full time jobs, and then people who are like maybe consultants or entrepreneurs, there's a lot of those people with the full time jobs who are asking like, so how do you do it? You know, like, what? When do you know it's time? And what do you have to have in place? Is there any advice you'd give like, either to them or to yourself? Like now that you've done it, you're looking back? What have you learned so far about like taking that leap? Yeah,


Tamara Grominsky  14:00

I think starting with the y is the most important part, because I think a lot of people feel like they should have a side hustle. Yeah, everyone's doing it. Or they feel like the economy isn't stable. And they do want a bit more security by having some diverse income streams. But being very clear on the why and knowing like, What good would look like for you help. So for me, I backed out from I have a deep understanding of the why behind my business. I really believe that product marketing is an isolating role. I believe that you know, the product marketing is a new function. It has been around for a few years now, but it's still emerging. And we're seeing the first round or batch cohort of product marketing leaders and so my whole Why is how do I connect people who otherwise would not be connected to have a sense of community but also an opportunity to learn and grow with each other and so that's what motivates me every day. Not necessarily like the revenue side of owning a business caused me to make both work but that was always my why and then I backed out from great in order for me to like actually fully realize See the potential of this? Why? How much money would I need to make in order to be able to quit my job? And I built a reasonable plan to get there, right? So I didn't just say, Okay, I'll keep doing both until I feel like it's time I kind of backed out from play, again, is that idea of like, know your destination, but be flexible about how you get there. That's a big one, I think so that you don't feel like you're constantly just like doing two things at once, that's gonna get very overwhelming, you need to feel like there's an exit app somewhere. The second one would have to be like, very iterative. I think a lot of people have this idea of like, oh, I want to be a consultant that doesn't messaging or whatever it might be. But I think if you focus on the Why let the impact and the bigger vision behind what you're doing. And then you kind of just get feedback as you go. Probably your idea is going to come to light in ways you could never have imagined and being open to that is going to, you know, make the journey all that more enjoyable. I'm sure that happened with you, even when you started a close friend. Right?


Michael Mioduski  15:58

Yeah, definitely on the job learning everyday is a little bit new. But you can get sidetracked and start to diverge too far. But as you said, like having that Northstar, you know, in your mind constantly like your guiding lights. Yeah, you can you can always sort of like, of course, correct. Right. And you have to but yeah, it's always, no two days are the same, and always something new. So but you know, I think for me, it's been almost like a hobby, you know, it's like, this is just really fun. And you're constantly problem solving, learning all these things on the fly. So, but I think for those who need something kinda like, concrete, predictable. For me, I haven't really had that experience, you know, but you got to be pretty adaptable. And I do


Tamara Grominsky  16:43

think this is something that I'm seeing a lot right now. Like, there are so many people who have started a business because a lot of people were laid off. And so they had no other choice. Or, you know, there has been this rise of this idea of the solopreneur. And I think it's like kind of cool to present yourself as a solopreneur. Now, yeah, but I also feel like, it's important for us to say like, that's not for everyone, like, it's equally cool to have an awesome job. Like, Yang, the Director of Product Marketing and amazing company is equally as cool as what you know, I am trying to do. And so I've also been trying to raise that message a bit more, because it's not like we're all optimizing for the same thing. And not the point, if you do this self reflection, where you need to understand like, what am I optimizing for? And you and I are gonna optimize for two different things. Yeah, me and my old team are going to optimize for two different things like everyone has their own unique path. But if you don't take the time to decide what your path is, someone else will decide it for you. So


Michael Mioduski  17:37

tomorrow, I saw you speak in London, a tremendous keynote, I think it was on positioning. And I think you said you're going to retire that one. Because you've given it a couple of times a couple times, you've got an insanely good energy on stage command the room? How did you get into speaking and what's what's been the role of presenting in your career?


Tamara Grominsky  17:56

So I think early on, I learned that I needed to present well, so right, it was always easier for me. And during like written presentations, slide decks, always, like slammed up. But when I was at Yellow Pages, actually, so we had a massive sales team that looks 1000s of sales reps, actually. And there's an all across Canada, I know you guys have the same type of model in the US as well. And as I would launch my products, I would need to educate all of the sales teams. And we have a soul enablement team that will kind of like design some of the materials for us. But as the product marketer, I would actually give those trainings. And so I actually would fly around Canada even sometimes, which was super fun, meet those sales teams in real life. And you start to kind of observe, what techniques are landing? Well, how do you engage the audience? How do you bring energy because it's also possible to bring too much energy, right. And sometimes that's my problems. Tony down. So that was my first like, took rational experience with like, presenting, and I loved it, some people got so anxious before, during those trainings, I was just fired up. And so then that kind of just quickly turned into me having an interest in speaking or doing presentations and other ways. And I was lucky when I bought the Unbounce. They were kind of at a place where the founders at the time, were all looking to move on from the business. There was originally six out nors, who the fully bootstrap business. And I got there right at the time where we were building a strategy to raise some funding, and we ended up raising some private equity. And with that, the founders all basically exited the business, as it meant that there's an opportunity for like some fresh faces at the business. And I basically just raised my hand and said, Hey, I have energy and passion for this. I love our product. I'd love to talk about our product more publicly. And by then I already had a bit of a personal brand on LinkedIn to like writing content, so it was a natural fit. And I got super lucky that one of the cofounders of Unbounce his name's Ali gardener. He is an incredible speaker and he actually started his own product now that At Philips people plan speaking engagements and like your slides for your presentation, which was super cool. But at the time, he was still on at Unbounce as an advisor, and he was able to coach and mentor me on both how to present on stage like how to bring that energy. But more importantly, he taught me all of the work happens before we even get on stage, how you design the story. And so what all he would do is he would have me come with my ideas. And he goes, what are the ideas that you want to communicate in this talk, and then we would build an emotion map. And so he says that basically, you want to take the audience through a series of emotions throughout your presentation, what most people do wrong is that keep people talking about the same level the whole time. And that's why people get bored. And so his main thing, and I'll give you some good tips, and the first one is you come out on stage. And most likely, you've already been introduced a smartphone, the founder of PMM, can welcome her to the stage, the first mistake most people do is that they then introduce themselves again. But you've lost their the moment that they have the most attention, you've already lost them. And so always says, so come out on stage and start with a very strong statement or question something to immediately capture their attention. I mean, this is kind of the same thing, like a sales pitch with a problem, right? But you're, you're starting strong, you're capturing that moment. And then think about what is the emotional journey you want to take them on? So for example, a lot of times in my talks, I will actually help the audience feel a pain before I agree inclusion. So I'll say, Isn't it painful when we saw this? Or like, I bet you we all feel this way. And I actually want them to feel a bit low in that moment. And they're like, yeah, they suck. Product Marketing is misunderstood, or this is hard, you know, because then I can bring them up with a positive solution and get them excited. So what all he had me do is he'll actually have me with a whiteboard. And we will map out the emotions that people will feel throughout the entire talk. And why we'll do to drive that emotion. So is it a slide? Is it a visual? Is it idea concept? Whatever it


Michael Mioduski  22:11

might be? That is just like masterclass, that's amazing.


Tamara Grominsky  22:14

He was honestly I was, he was like two years of this. Oh, yeah, I'm able to tap into him. And he just knows so much. He's spoken at some of the largest conferences around the world. Again, one of those people who are truly magnetic.


Michael Mioduski  22:29

Yeah. What do you think about any good TED Talk? They always have to start with that statement or question. It's like, yeah, boom, there it is. Yeah, that's wonderful. And they do say like, the science behind storytelling, and why movies are so engaging. And we we like feel them and remember how we felt watching them is like those ups and downs. Do they alter our brains chemistry? And yeah, that's some impactful stuff. Well, most movies will


Tamara Grominsky  22:53

take you on like the hero's journey, right? Almost, we can almost lay it out over any story. And that's kind of what you're trying to do here with a talk or Yeah,


Michael Mioduski  23:02

so polarizing subject. I know. You're more of a writer, but tremendous speaker. What's your relationship with like slideway? PowerPoint? G slides? Do you have any pet peeves over the years? Like, especially when you're in the audience on the other side? Like, what are some pitfalls to avoid? Maybe?


Tamara Grominsky  23:18

Yeah, I feel like it is a delicate balance between wanting to provide the right amount of context on the slide, but also not providing too much, I will say, like, my slide style, will leans towards having a bit more on slides, and maybe some other people I know, sometimes when I see people present, whether it's, you know, in a professional setting or onstage, they'll have like, one image, and then they'll talk to it. But ask them if you participate in that, as an audience member, I sometimes want more, or oftentimes, I love to take the slide that was presented to me and then digest it like a week later, you know, I'll send out the slides from a conference or I'm demoing a product, the sales rep sends me the slides, like I love to be able to read the slide on my own and be able to understand without having like, been inaccurate. So that, to me, is important. And if they can't take away something like one thing from the slide, they don't need to know all the things I'm saying on stage. But if they can't take away one thing from the slide, then I probably shouldn't include it. That's kind of mine. But I actually do think that that is a bit controversial, because I think a lot of people are the less text the better. Like if you're not using 24 point font, it sucks. I don't know. I think


Michael Mioduski  24:27

it's healthy to have these different opinions and not just have one like, dogma safe statement for you know what to land on LinkedIn, because there's different contexts. And I think, as you said, like, thinking about the audience's journey, thinking about a week later, yeah, it can really be hard to remember what somebody said if there's a because I'm the other way, I probably stuff way too many slides and you really have to be able to hear what I'm saying to like for that to make any sense afterwards. So I think you're very thoughtful to think of how that might play out later in life. That's it. That's


Tamara Grominsky  25:01

it. And then the other thing I like to do in presentation again, regardless of where the presentation is, is I like to provide off ramps. And what I mean by that is very rarely does an entire presentation feel relevant to one person, oftentimes, and I'm sure you've interviewed and experienced this as an audience member, or as observing a presentation, you're like, Wow, I love that idea. I want to learn more about that one you talked about, or that was really cool. Let me go dig into that. And so what I try to do when I speak is I provide operands. And by that I mean, a resource that I'll direct someone to, to learn more about that or a link. And again, this is where the takeaway is so important, because I'll actually link out to these things. And so I think all friends are important in presentation because it actually will allow a observer or the participant to almost choose their own adventure in some way. That's


Michael Mioduski  25:52

smart. Okay, how do you balance then trying not to be, I guess, how do you insert your goals like your CTA? Hey, go check out PMM camp, right? How do you come off and not as salesy like, what do you how do you how do you approach that?


Tamara Grominsky  26:05

Yeah, I mean, I think it's different if it's like a demo, in a b2b software perspective, versus Leslie, you should give example, honestly, I don't sell myself, I mean, I am selling myself, Tamara, as a person that you can like and trust. And I don't really care if they remember anything else. And so my main priority is, is have I provided value in this 30 minute period of time, I don't want to waste anyone's time, it's not valued. For me, it's value for them, right? Speaking is a gift that I give to others. It's how I think of it. I'm giving them knowledge, information, tools, wherever it may be, have I given them something that they can engage with it afterwards, that will ideally keep me in mind. So I always have a takeaway on my, you'll see, usually throughout my slides, I'll have like a Bitly URL that they could go to. And then on my last slide, I always have a QR code. And I create a landing page. For every talk, I get. The landing page summarizes my talk, it lets them download the slides. And it gives them a free tool or template that I talked about in the course, or in the slot. speaker sessions, they can actually apply what I just taught them in some way. And then I casually at the very end will say if you want to hear more of my random thoughts, follow me on LinkedIn, or subscribe to my newsletter. But again, I'll never sell a product or service like I'll never sell a course, or my community or anything on stage, because that would be like the first time meeting someone being like, do you want to buy my SAS product? You're not gonna say that you're gonna say, tell me more about what you're experiencing right now. Like, what's top of nine for you. And so this is like, the handshake that I'm giving with someone for the very first time, if you think about it that


Michael Mioduski  27:40

way. That's incredible. Yeah. pro level, like, follow up and in thinking ahead of what you want to be done afterward. As far as like preparing a new keynote. What's been your process like for this new one? How much time does one expect to put into, like a net new keynote subject? And delivery hours? Okay, yeah.


Tamara Grominsky  28:01

Let's think about there's almost two points to it. There's the idea. And then there's the presentation. So what I do is, I have a shell like a nutshell of an idea that I'm like, this is really what I want to communicate. So for me with this new Taw, it's been on my mind for I have to pinch this like, Well, half a year ago, I was like, I want to build this talk for you. This idea of like, I want product marketers to be more intentional about their careers. So that was the starting point. And then my brain just start to noodle on that. And I love to divide my talks into three sections, every talk I give will be in three sections. For the most part, structure matters, it helps people understand concepts and anchors the presentation. And then I'd like to have three nice takeaways at the very end. So I do that. And then I start to get a blank, like a PowerPoint presentation, or I use Google Slides. And I literally write the titles of every slot, which is basically like, if I was just talking to you, what would I tell you? So I write those and then I sit with that a little bit, I adjust. And then I actually build the slides and build the content. And so it's like Shalabi, idea, structuring the narrative. And then how do you make the narrative Pamela


Michael Mioduski  29:12

Brown, that's great. And then do you do actually like rehearsing, like in front of a mirror, like in the hotel room before you go up? Here,


Tamara Grominsky  29:21

but I do this a lot, the first few rounds of practicing are actually to fill the gaps in the narrative, because it's in your mind might not have come out. So even like this week, I was practicing the top for next week, I was like, Oh, I missed a really good slide there that I think I'm not actually fully conveying what I want to convey without that slide. So that's gonna help you fill in the gaps. And then I do practice only because I don't read slides. And I don't put slides to people. I have notes like speaker notes. I don't do that. Wow. I don't even write speaker notes. So I used to write speaker notes. And then that became too addictive because you memorize this, Doc, I built this talk. It's my thoughts. I don't need someone to tell me what my thoughts are. So I have no speaker notes for my In my talk, just that slide, and I just practice until I feel confident that I could give the talk, I'm stumbling, or I know the areas where maybe I will stumble on so I can have a bit of prepared concert for that, you know, then the day of it's all about like amping yourself up. And this is like such a Tony Robbins thought, we're gonna get to that. But Tony Robbins is all about, like, harnessing energy. And he believes that like how you present yourself is fully controlled by you, right? And I believe that too. So I don't know if it's Tony or someone else who basically says that this idea of anxiety and excitement share the same emotion. So oftentimes before giving a presentation, people feel anxious, but you can actually override that in the brain. And you can say, body, I acknowledge what you experience right now. But actually, you're not experiencing anxiety, you're experiencing excitement. And what an exciting opportunity you have in front of you feel like the scale but they're doing like a job or a call with a prospect or getting on stage. And you shift the energy from being anxious to being excited. And then you trust that like all of the memorization and the story will come up to you. Well,


Michael Mioduski  31:08

I'm excited to see you next week. This will be if I'm over hyped it up. Great. Well, I think we're in the spice cabinet right now. Tomorrow. i Okay, you're a voracious reader, what are like the top couple of books that you're in love with right now that you just made? Maybe right or all time favorites that you just can't stop reading? Yeah. And not to be business or guest or give maybe one business one, one. Okay.


Tamara Grominsky  31:32

So the book that I'm obsessed with right now is fourth wing. It's like that dragon book that's out. I don't know if Paracin bind actually obsessed with it. And I really say my dragon book to anyone who will listen. So that would be like, go and listen. It's like a masterclass and storytelling in this book, you know, the book that I returned to time and time again, I feel like everyone says is the April Dunford. But, but I really do love it position any. Um, I would also say, I am loved. And Cheryl looked at the books I haven't read is the one about competing against law. That one is like the jobs to be done book. All right. Yeah. And again, its content and be wiped dry. But the weight e leverages storytelling to bring these case studies to life. And they talked about the milkshake example, all, all of that it's incredible. And it's a book that like, truly every storyteller, every product marketer, anyone who wants to really understand customers and how to convey an idea should be reading.


Michael Mioduski  32:31

So important. Okay. Your mentor Ollie gardener, you said, what, what is the name of his new company?


Tamara Grominsky  32:37

I don't know. I think it could be the presenter or something, I will link it for sure. Show Notes, because basically, his tool will help you do the process that I just walked you through. That's great.


Michael Mioduski  32:48

What is new at PMM camp? Like, what's it about? What can people go there to find? So


Tamara Grominsky  32:54

Kingdom camp is basically a community and media company for product marketers, I would say what's new couple things. So I have a free newsletter that everyone can join. And if you join the newsletter, I just launched last week, a program called camper connections. And again, it's also free. And it really goes back to my why I want to bring people together for meaningful conversation. So if you join camper connection, once a month, you will get a connection with another product marketer from around the world. And you will have the opportunity to chat virtually for 30 minutes about any topic that you want. The first round of camper connections went out last week, and they'll happen again next month. So I would say join the newsletter and in the welcome email, you'll get an invite to camper connections.


Michael Mioduski  33:34

So cool, the serendipity, but it's like yeah, you're a matchmaker. That's so cool.


Tamara Grominsky  33:39

That's exactly uh, yeah,


Michael Mioduski  33:41

so fun. Okay, Vancouver. Do you have any favorite like, if I visited some time? Favorite restaurant? Cafe Bar, like must do kind of thing. Yes.


Tamara Grominsky  33:51

Savvy, oval Bay. It is a Italian restaurant. It's amazing. Or Nightingale, which is a little bit more like sharing plates. Those would be the two places that I go to time and time again. All right. Okay.


Michael Mioduski  34:04

Very important question for the presentation nation. Tomorrow, your next Keynote or maybe on the TED Talk stage someday. What's gonna be your walkout song?


Tamara Grominsky  34:14

Oh, I'm not ready for that. Okay, so I always feel like walking on sunshine, and it's kind of like vibe. So I'm gonna say that because that's kind of like what I play in my head before I walk out on stage.


Michael Mioduski  34:32

Nailed it. That's brilliant. All right. Well, thank you so much. This has been a blast. And it's so good hearing your how you got into business, how you've leveraged your skills as a writer, but also a storyteller and a speaker. super inspiring. And I know a lot of people are gonna get something out of this. Do you have any parting shots, any final advice that you'd like to leave us with? Well, I


Tamara Grominsky  34:54

think just like as much time and effort as you put into thinking about your company your product and How you position and sell that I would say, try to put an equal amount into thinking of yourself as the product. And I think you'll probably be pretty surprised by the outcome of that


Michael Mioduski  35:09

awesome Tamara grim Minsky of PMM camp. Go check her out, go sign up for the newsletter, follow her on LinkedIn. Until then this has been presentation thinking. Until next time, keep on pitching

About The Author

Molly Geoghegan, Narrative Strategist

Molly Geoghegan is a writer, organizer, and film school dropout. She hikes frequently with her dog, Guinness, and signs up for too many email newsletters. Having lived in Chicago, Paris, Dublin and Galway, Molly has made her way back to the Rockies and calls Denver, CO home.

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Tamara Grominsky of PMM Camp on personal positioning