Transform your presentation into a performance with Carmen Sederino

Molly Geoghegan (00:01.866)
Welcome back to Presentation Thinking, aka the Storyteller Study Club. I am one part of your host, Molly Gagan from Ghost Ranch Communications. We're missing Mikey today, but I feel like I'm in really good hands because our guest has had lots of experience helping people on stage and presenting. I am joined by none other than the director of Illuminated Story, Carmen Cedrino. Welcome to Presentation Thinking.

Carmen (00:31.127)
Thank you so much for having me here, Molly. I'm very excited for our conversation. think we're kindred spirits and we'll have lots to talk about.

Molly Geoghegan (00:38.36)
I know this is really fun. And I just want to shout out like we got connected through I think a cold email, but I was so excited to hear from you because you have been on my list of there's been, you know, we're year three here in the podcast of presentation thinking. And I have long kept a list of presentation kind of coaches and leaders and people in the space and you've been on my list. So this is really special. Yes. That we finally get to connect. Yeah. Very, very cool.

Carmen (01:04.023)
That's amazing.

Molly Geoghegan (01:07.992)
But yeah, let's just kick it off. Like, you have such a cool background and I'm excited because I'm a theater kid and I know you were too. So I want to hear about how you got into the presentation space. We'll get into your business of illuminated story. Presentation Nation, if you're just tuning in for the first time, you are going to want to keep listening if you are someone that hates public speaking and might need some help and finds yourself on a stage and never expected to find yourself on a stage.

Carmen is gonna have some awesome, awesome insight and her journey is really interesting. So yeah, give us a little background Carmen, where did you come from?

Carmen (01:46.443)
I would love to, yes, I was a theatre kid too. But surprisingly, I was a very, very shy child and my mum actually enrolled me in calisthenics when I was about five years old. So for anyone that doesn't know calisthenics, it's kind of a cross between dance and aerobics, I would say. And I enjoyed going each week and then at the end of the year, they have a concert and my mum was a bit worried.

Molly Geoghegan (02:00.237)
amazing.

Right, right.

Carmen (02:12.279)
It's Australia, I'm in Melbourne, Australia, it's morning time here, so excuse my voice. My mum was a little bit worried because she thought at concert time, well, first of all, she just thought I wouldn't get up on the stage. And if I did get up on the stage, she was worried she'd have to catch me side stage when I came off crying. But the opposite happened. I got up there and absolutely loved it. was...

Molly Geoghegan (02:17.965)
No, you sound great.

Carmen (02:37.879)
waving and smiling and just really enjoying the moment under the lights. So I went on and joined a local theatre company. So from the age of eight, I was acting in productions. We would do a couple of productions a year, most years. And sometimes we would travel to local schools. And my school, of course, was one of the local schools that we travelled to. And I always remember my teachers saying to my parents,

Molly Geoghegan (02:42.955)
in your element.

Carmen (03:06.217)
my goodness, I cannot believe that is Carmen up on stage. She's got this big voice and playing these big characters and in class she's just quiet and she's the quiet child of the back of the classroom, not disturbing anyone, just doing her work. So I guess it was a bit of a juxtaposition, me on stage versus me in the classroom. I did go on and I studied formally, so I did a bachelor of performing arts at Monash University in Melbourne.

Molly Geoghegan (03:10.209)
That's funny.

Molly Geoghegan (03:20.909)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (03:33.205)
And I stayed on after my degree and did my honours year. And for my thesis, I wrote a theatre show and produced it, directed it, acted in it, and was very, very happy to get a high distinction for that whole year and for that project. And what was interesting was that...

I had to also write a thesis report on everything I did on that stage and why I made certain decisions. So why was the lighting that way at that moment? Why did the sound come in there? Why was the set designed the way it was? And I didn't know at the time, but it certainly has come into my business today. But I'll give you one more segue because...

Molly Geoghegan (04:12.961)
Definitely.

Carmen (04:16.867)
Once I'd finished my degree, was working for a corporate company actually selling bathroom fixtures just on their shop floor in their flagship showroom. And she said, can you work for us full time? And I was like, no, I definitely can't do that. I've got to keep my days free for auditions. And she said, well, what if I make you a deal that will let you go on your auditions when your agent gets them for you? And other than that, you can work for us full time.

So I thought, well, that's a pretty good deal. So I said, yes. And 18 and a half years later, I was still there and had worked my way up through the company. I ended up working in the marketing department as a senior leader, running national teams. I would coach my teams on public speaking naturally because they had to do a lot of it within their role. And studied marketing in that time. And I was the brand manager of

Molly Geoghegan (04:45.111)
Pretty nice.

Carmen (05:12.683)
the whole bathroom portfolio by the end, which was at the time about a $300 million portfolio of brands. So I learned a completely different skill set through that career.

Molly Geoghegan (05:19.927)
Pretty awesome.

Right, right, no, that's pretty sweet deal. And such a track. And did you continue to go on some of those auditions throughout those years? Yeah.

Carmen (05:32.887)
No, the auditions did stop. So the first few years I did and then when I found myself climbing the ladder that it was a very big job and I had kids and so yes I did fall away from my love and my passion and about seven and a half years ago I decided to leave that corporate job which was a very big decision at the time because I was on very good money, I had the six figure salary, I had

Molly Geoghegan (05:37.229)
Yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (05:43.117)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (06:02.123)
The car provided, the phone, the computers, everything was provided. And I decided to, I would say, jump off the edge of the cliff, it felt like at the time, but it also felt like I really needed to do that and start my own business, which is Illuminated Story. And that's still the business I run today and was the best decision of my life.

Molly Geoghegan (06:05.043)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (06:23.253)
Yes, boom, okay, I wanted a little like, we'll do a little dazzle sound effect there. Illuminated story. Okay, so let us, give us, yeah, for those that aren't familiar, what is illuminated story? And I wanna talk more about that transition into the business because I heard you said that you just kind of by default were the person that helped folks on your team.

with getting ready for presentations and getting on stage. And I think that is a really, I'm sure anyone listening is like, either I'm that person or I know that person on my team or we need someone that helps us with that. And I think that's just such a skill that can be learned. I maybe have an opinion on this, but it's so important and it's that soft skill that really, really can help. yeah, tell us a little bit more about Illuminated Story.

Carmen (07:11.927)
So Illuminated Story, the brand, the name came from the fact that I wanted to help light people up from the inside is what I call it. Because when I was in my corporate career, my team that I ended up coaching as default, they had to deliver, back then it was about two weeks worth of classroom training because e-learning had not come in yet. Obviously that shifted as e-learning came in. They had to speak at state meetings. They had to...

often speak in front of leaders that were more senior than them as well. And that can be really intimidating. And what I found was that when I hired people, we would always interview, they had to do a presentation in the interview and most people would say, yes, I'm very happy to do that in my job role. And then when they started the job and they actually had to get up and deliver some of the content that we had, was.

Molly Geoghegan (08:00.225)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (08:07.775)
I don't think I can do this. It's really scary. I'm worried I'm not going to be good enough. And so I just naturally started coaching them. And what I found was that within 12 months in the role, it became their favorite thing to do it. It added variety to the role. saw how much impact they had on the business. And a lot of my team members ended up moving into senior management themselves in different positions throughout the company.

Molly Geoghegan (08:09.901)
Right.

Molly Geoghegan (08:15.628)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (08:24.077)
It's amazing.

Carmen (08:36.907)
because they were seen differently by the company as well. So that's kind of where I realized that I could do that, even though I didn't consciously set out to do that. So when I started Illuminated Story, it was to help people in corporate to be their best selves in front of a crowd, because often very smart people are great one-on-one, but not so good in front of a crowd. And I got,

Molly Geoghegan (08:45.92)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (08:59.361)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (09:04.041)
amazing feedback from corporate groups and they were so excited by how much they grew. But what I found was I was attracting a lot of general managers, CEOs, executives that had to speak at industry conferences and events. So I used to call it they needed to go from the boardroom to the stage. And as you would know, Molly, it requires a different skill set.

Molly Geoghegan (09:23.253)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (09:27.975)
and you need a different energy and presence on the stage to really hold the room than you do in the boardroom. So I was basically teaching them how to perform. They were performing as themselves, not acting as somebody else, but they needed, yeah, that performance quality out there. And I realized that it was working when one of my clients who was based in Singapore at the time,

Molly Geoghegan (09:41.857)
Yeah, characters.

Carmen (09:53.277)
She'd spoken at a few major conferences in Vietnam, Singapore, and then Adelaide in Australia. And she got the feedback that she was just as good as the paid speakers on the day, even though she was speaking as a corporate sponsor, as someone as part of the industry. So that's when I thought, okay, I need to do something with this. now I have the pleasure of working with thought leaders from all over the world who really want to

Molly Geoghegan (10:10.989)
Cool.

Carmen (10:22.071)
take the stage in a big way and have a huge impact over their audience.

Molly Geoghegan (10:26.571)
Yeah, that is so cool. This is kind of lighting up a light bulb I've never thought about, which is that maybe part of the reason speaking in front of people is so hard as yourself is because there's no script for being yourself and maybe people feel like inauthentic, a little weird. Like everyone's like, what do I do with my hands? As I'm waving my hands around. And whereas I think for me, from that experience of reading other characters' lines on stage,

There's like a clear like kind of outfit to put on, an accent to apply, movements and motions. Are you an older person? Are you a younger person? So I think that's maybe something, one of the reasons it feels so hard because people are like, my God, I'm being so perceived as myself instead of just a character, which is a mask, right? I don't know, I'm rambling, but yeah.

Carmen (11:18.807)
Absolutely, yes, 100%. And that's why the shy child could get up on stage and act because I was playing characters. And when I first joined corporate and when I had to get up and speak, I nearly died. Like it was, I the same thing that all of my clients describe and felt like a complete imposter and was petrified of being up there because yeah, it was me that was being seen, not.

Molly Geoghegan (11:25.025)
There you go. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (11:31.82)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (11:35.658)
Right.

Molly Geoghegan (11:42.935)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (11:47.275)
the character that I could hide behind.

Molly Geoghegan (11:49.234)
Yeah, scariest thing in the world, being perceived. So I'm curious at Illuminated Story, I love that finding the light from within and I love what you said, be your best selves in front of a crowd, that might be the episode title. What is your process like with that? The client comes to you and I'm sure there's a variety of people with different experiences and different industries of course and what their expectations are and what their needs are for presenting.

Carmen (12:01.931)
Yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (12:17.133)
quote unquote performing, yeah, what's your process like first kind of to get into what their story is about and what their needs are?

Carmen (12:25.281)
Well, now as I'm working with the thought leaders who want the big stages, or it doesn't have to be big stage, the right rooms, I should say, the right rooms, I've got a very niche process or niche area I'm working in where I am helping someone elevate their keynote speaking to what I call a keynote show or keynote performance.

Molly Geoghegan (12:34.167)
Yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (12:47.891)
Mm-hmm. Gotcha.

Carmen (12:49.193)
So the process with that is that someone would come in and we work through Illuminated Story Intensive first, which is creating the blueprint and the concept for their keynote show. So I will spend time with the client and extract out their, what I call signature moments and signature stories, and then craft them into a show.

So that obviously includes making sure the opening is, I call it start with a bang, really, really powerful, blows people away, has them leaning in, wanting to know what comes next, what comes next. The closing, so, so important. And no, I'm not telling you anything new, Molly. The closing needs to be powerful. It's the last thing the audience sees and remembers from you. And of course includes your call to action if that's part of what you're doing.

Molly Geoghegan (13:25.569)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (13:31.201)
Haha.

Carmen (13:43.317)
The middle is interesting because the middle I see is the most dangerous ground. Most people that I'm working with now have done speaking and they understand that the top and the bottom are the most important, powerful pieces of the show. But the middle is where you can actually lose people because that's where the meat of your message is. It's where we can maybe become a little bit boring if I...

Molly Geoghegan (13:59.309)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (14:09.681)
want to use that word and we can very easily lose people because I think as a speaker these days you have to work so much harder because our audiences are used to being moving on from material very fast. We're not used to concentrating on one thing for very long with social media and the way we consume information these days. So that middle has to have what I call signature moments.

Molly Geoghegan (14:10.987)
Yeah, yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (14:25.952)
yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (14:32.845)
100%.

Carmen (14:36.911)
gear changes that continue to hook the audience back in and move them along and have them want to continue on the journey with you until the very end.

Molly Geoghegan (14:45.985)
Yeah, I love that. I mean, we have talked about the shape often of a talk and you have to come up with, yeah, everyone knows, like, you could have a killer hook and say something inflammatory, like interesting, start with that really interesting anecdote to pull the audience in. But if you're...

meandering throughout the middle, like you will lose an audience, especially in this day and age. What are some of the ways that you develop those, I love how you're saying the signature moments. What are some of the ways that you explore what someone's signature moment could be? You know, I'm thinking of like, does it become a catch? Is it a catchphrase? Is it the moment where they show a video? Like how do you kind of explore, depending on what the purpose of that person's talk is, how do you explore what those could be?

Carmen (15:34.163)
Normally it starts with their stories. So definitely the theatrics, if I want to call it that, like potentially a video or potentially it's the way that they tell the stories, they definitely layer on top and help to create those signature moments. But the very, very beginning of how I bring that out from the client is through stories. And it's actually really interesting because when I'm interviewing people, the signature stories can sometimes be the ones that have been

disregarded or that people don't think are that interesting. I've got a client, for instance, she works in aesthetic intelligence. So she helps you decide how you're going to present yourself through dressing and styling to communicate whatever message it is that you want to communicate out to the world. And when I was interviewing her, started, she was a professional singer as well in the past. And she just started talking about this.

beauty pageant where she was singing and it was the Russian woman of the year, the beauty pageant. And there was a stylist, this was many, many years ago, there was a stylist that looked after the whole production, if you want to call it that, for the pageant. And so she dressed my client and she dressed her in this really tight fitting black dress that she could barely breathe in. They...

Molly Geoghegan (16:57.488)
no.

Carmen (16:58.857)
it was the Britney Spears era. So they dyed her hair bleach blonde and they'd actually taken a chunk out because it was so dyed. Yes. And so she's surrounded by all these beautiful women, you know, in bikinis about to walk onto the stage and she had to sing Whitney Houston's I Will Always Love You, which for anyone that knows that song has some pretty big notes in it. And right when she was

Molly Geoghegan (17:03.227)
no.

God, nightmare.

90s nightmare.

Molly Geoghegan (17:19.187)
a killer.

Molly Geoghegan (17:24.364)
Not easy.

Carmen (17:25.473)
getting to the crescendo, they had fire shoot up from the stages. so between the not being able to breathe and the fire, was pretty hard to get that note out. And what she learned from that was that dressing or aesthetic intelligence and styling is not about looking good, it's about being able to express your power. And I said that.

Molly Geoghegan (17:34.645)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, right.

Molly Geoghegan (17:49.985)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (17:52.553)
is an amazing story and we are going to use that in your keynote show and you know, she can sing. I'm like, you can even sing a couple of lines. How cool is that? You are definitely going to stand out at the event. And the most important thing was though, it came back and cemented in her core message. So the business side of me, the marketing and sales side of me understands that just stories that are cool or powerful or theatrical.

Molly Geoghegan (17:56.287)
It really is, yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (18:12.898)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (18:22.079)
If they don't mean anything, if it's not coming back to a core message that relates to your audience and causes them to want to take action on something, then they're for no reason and that's not powerful. So it does all need to come back to what outcome are you looking for and why are we doing this?

Molly Geoghegan (18:30.647)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (18:34.423)
Right.

Molly Geoghegan (18:41.729)
Yeah, what outcome are we looking for? Why are you doing that? Yeah, and kind of, yeah, that's a good exploration to go about with any project, but certainly one that you're on the stage presenting yourself or a.

product, a launch, anything. I love hearing those stories. often ask, especially people that have been on stage, what's like the craziest or like most kind of wild thing that's happened? Because I think sometimes it helps people to hear, if you're listeners, if you can hear that story and know that this person has like integrated that into their experience and their story, like.

You're not gonna have it that bad. We're not in the Britney Spears era anymore. You don't need the boa around your neck. That's a different time, but it's helpful to hear those things to be like, the stakes probably aren't as high as you think. Take it down a notch, it's all right. So that's helpful. With finding those kind of core pieces of why, the purpose, and connecting it back to the story, I feel like this is something.

Carmen (19:13.847)
Yeah.

Carmen (19:21.414)
I know.

Carmen (19:30.135)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (19:42.242)
that's being talked a lot about in marketing, course, storytelling is still very important, especially in the age of AI as more iteration and momentum can pick up. We're talking a lot about on the podcast how we can use that as a tool, but how can we still strategize the core story and keep that as part of the core? So how do you see that your marketing background has helped kind of position you for this? Certainly the theater and the theatricality pieces, of course, but.

that intersection of marketing and theatricality. What do you see there?

Carmen (20:16.491)
Yeah, I would say marketing and sales has helped a lot. Well, first of all, with a lot of the type of clients I'm working with, especially when I was working with corporate clients, I could speak their language and I understood their day to day. But other than that, from a speaking point of view, and again, I'm sure the listeners have heard this and you would know it inside out, it is all about your audience and marketing is also all about the customer.

Molly Geoghegan (20:31.841)
jargon.

Carmen (20:45.631)
So it's starting with the customer or the audience and understanding either what they want or what they don't even know they want yet. And providing that to them and enlightening them and bringing them on board, building rapport, bringing them into your tribe or your world. And from a business point of view, when it comes to speaking, keeping them in your world post.

your talk because the business of speaking is a lot more than just those moments on stage. It is a sales and marketing machine that you have to create if you want to make good money from speaking. So I would say it's been invaluable, the business side, the marketing and sales side, from a communication point of view in terms of how we're going to get this message across to this audience as simple and clearly as possible.

Molly Geoghegan (21:25.665)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (21:42.871)
That's the marketing and sales side and how we're going to persuade them or convince them and show them that this is a really great thing for them. And then of course, when you can blend that with the performance qualities and theatrics, then you can create an experience that people just love and that they want to jump up and talk to the speaker afterwards rather than a polite applause and...

Molly Geoghegan (22:03.372)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (22:10.186)
they had some interesting things. Maybe I should chat to them. So just igniting those feelings inside the audience.

Molly Geoghegan (22:17.867)
Yeah, memorable moments, yeah, very cool, very cool. Kind of speaking of that and finding your audience, kind of zoom out a little bit here. I'm curious how that is, you're working with such a niche group at Illuminated Story, these keynote speakers that are developing their story. How has that been for you and Illuminated Story's process the last seven-ish years?

finding your own audience. How has that been for you? I know a lot of listeners are still working on those kind of things too. Finding the audience and trial and error. How was that figuring out what your niche is? It's really powerful.

Carmen (22:54.891)
Yeah, well, think it's taken me, it's certainly seven and a half years ago when I first started, didn't, I wasn't as niche as this. So I was serving most people that wanted to improve in public speaking, for instance. In the last 18 months to two years, I've really niched down into this area. And how have I got there? Well, first of all, I realized it was what I absolutely love doing.

Molly Geoghegan (23:22.925)
It's a good sign.

Carmen (23:24.011)
You know, I always enjoy helping people, but I was more interested when I got to help someone put on a show, basically. And when I say, I think when you hear put on a show, people often think, you know, big theatrics and huge, you know, Broadway theatre kind of style, musical or something like that. And it doesn't mean that, it can mean that. And that can be cool if it's right for the context and the purpose.

Molly Geoghegan (23:46.305)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (23:53.487)
And if you think about theater stripped back, it could be a one woman or one man show, and it could be basically a black box or a plain stage. And it's really about the actor or the person delivering the information and how they go about that, how they bring that story to life through just the instrument of their own voice and body and the craft of crafting the message.

Molly Geoghegan (24:17.761)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (24:21.971)
So in terms of finding my audience though, from a business perspective, now we do, my team does a lot of direct outreach. So we do a lot of research. Yes. Hence why I'm on this podcast. We do a lot of research. We find people that we think could really benefit from what I do. And then we reach out and say, Hey, do you want to have a conversation? Let's connect.

Molly Geoghegan (24:34.797)
Finding the podcasts. Yes.

Carmen (24:51.583)
And it's about building rapport and building a network. That person doesn't always say yes, obviously, but sometimes they know someone who does want that or they're intrigued. It might be something they want in the future. So just like any other sales system, it's then keeping in touch with people, making sure it's relevant and good for them whenever you're reaching out rather than you just reaching out saying, hey, you ready now? Hey, you ready now?

Molly Geoghegan (25:05.943)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (25:19.231)
Mm-hmm. Right, right. How about now?

Carmen (25:21.319)
So, yeah, so, and then I think really, and I'm about to, I'm actually launching my own podcast soon, which should be called, Keynote, which will be very exciting. So I've interviewed a lot of amazing speakers from all over the world, and I'm excited to bring those messages to anyone who's interested in listening to them. And of course, that's a way to build your network as well.

Molly Geoghegan (25:30.497)
Yes?

Yes, we'll plug it.

Molly Geoghegan (25:45.773)
It'll be us.

Carmen (25:51.191)
And then in terms of owning your message and your content, so if you're going to be promoting yourself or marketing through social media channels, then make sure you've got a really consistent message and it's the message that you really want people to hear. Because if you try and service everyone and you've got confusing messaging because you're saying one thing one day, something else the next, then you're probably not going to attract your ideal clients.

Molly Geoghegan (26:21.035)
Yeah, consistent messaging. I really love hearing as well that just to validate anyone out there, and I know this was the case for Ghost Ranch as well to find our niche and specifically presentation design. We work with a of B2B tech. And while it's important to refresh and...

maybe cast a wide net in the beginning, hearing you say that it took about five years to really niche down and understand exactly who you're talking to and also what you get excited about because that's often I think the green light of like, ooh, you're onto something there. And I think Ghost Ranch has really found a sweet spot with that. And I think once you kind of are finding the enjoyable spot, like you're onto something. So keep, keep digging, you know, that's, it's always cool to hear people's, we love a niche, you know.

Carmen (27:04.15)
Yeah, and I love what you guys do. think it can be so powerful to have the support that you give to clients. So the slide decks, isn't it, that you help people create? They can take so much time, so much time to do really well.

Molly Geoghegan (27:20.353)
Mm-hmm, yeah. Yep.

Molly Geoghegan (27:25.591)
So much. my God.

Carmen (27:27.881)
I would say for, as you said, most people in the tech industry, whether it's the CIO, CTO, or even the CEO, you've got other things to do. And so why not get someone who's amazing at design, create something extraordinary for you, rather than, you know, something that might be okay, but not the absolute best it could be. It makes a huge difference, your visuals to.

Molly Geoghegan (27:41.377)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (27:54.175)
your whole performance and how you come across. So yeah, love what you do as a business.

Molly Geoghegan (27:59.374)
Thank you Carmen Cedarena, guys. Ghost Ranch plug. We're so excited to listen to your podcast too. I will definitely put that in the spice cabinet as we say. Okay, perfect timing because let's get down to brass tacks. This is presentation thinking. People wanna know how they can present better. What is some of the most common thing when a client starts with you? What is some almost low hanging fruit? You're like, this is how we can improve your stage presence, your presentation.

Carmen (28:03.187)
Hahaha.

Carmen (28:08.791)
Thank you.

Molly Geoghegan (28:27.285)
What are some common things that people come to you with?

Carmen (28:30.485)
Yeah, so in terms of improving stage presence, I would say stop presenting, start performing. And what I mean by that is unless you are an actor or a performer, you probably haven't been taught how to use your instrument, which is your body and your voice when you're on stage. So, but it doesn't mean you don't know how to, it's about tapping into what's already there. So if I give you an example,

Molly Geoghegan (28:56.141)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (28:57.845)
When most people get on stage, they don't use much range. Their voice will be within a small range and their body, you you may know that you have to move around the space. You might get out from behind the lectern, please do if you're not. it's limited and what people see as professional can be limiting yourself.

Molly Geoghegan (29:15.189)
Right, Move around. Use the space, yeah.

Carmen (29:27.549)
it's like I have to be professional up here so we use this professional voice and we only move you know within a certain range. So think of yourself if we look at ranges think of yourself maybe at church or in a quiet environment where you're having to use your voice and it's lower and the body movements are slower and quieter and more contained.

And then in comparison, think about yourself at something you love. Maybe it's your favorite sporting event. I know the Super Bowl was just on in the US, for instance. So you're cheering and yelling and you've got big arm movements and big voice and passion. You've got all of that range and everything in between. And you can tap into what's right for the moment in the story that you're telling on stage.

Molly Geoghegan (29:59.896)
Yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (30:07.085)
Yeah, excitement, concert.

Carmen (30:17.183)
And the thing about being on stage, so I trained in both theater acting and film and television. And in theater acting, you have to be so much bigger in your gestures and voice and facial expressions than you do on camera because the camera can see and catch everything. it's, yeah, it's quite, can be quite close up. So when you're on stage at an industry conference, you need to be much bigger than you in the boardroom.

Molly Geoghegan (30:36.503)
Yeah.

Carmen (30:46.281)
If you're not, you're probably going to be bit flat and boring. And if you do the same thing that you should do on stage in the boardroom, they might think you're a bit crazy. So it's about where you are, what the space is, and then that will give you clues into how you should use your body and your presence. So I work a lot on that with clients when they come in.

Molly Geoghegan (30:55.469)
Right, right. Flailing. Right.

Molly Geoghegan (31:10.475)
Yeah. So body and voice. And I know we had talked a little bit about this when you're, know, everyone knows the opening's important, the closing's really important, but the sticky middle, keeping people's attention. Talk a little bit more about, like even with you just doing the examples there, like was you talking library voice versus big excited, like I'm at a concert or exciting event. I...

I think that's a great way and a great tool that's so much more powerful than people think about keeping people engaged. Talk to us a little bit about dynamics of voice and maybe body movement for keeping people engaged.

Carmen (31:48.351)
Yeah, so I think think about your keynote as a piece of music. If a piece of music didn't have ebbs and flows and softer moments and louder moments, then it would be really hard to listen to. And our talks are the same. So sometimes, you know, if we're really high energy the whole time, that's really hard to listen to. If we're really low energy the whole time, it's very boring and very hard to listen to. So we've got to mix it up.

Molly Geoghegan (32:02.219)
Yeah. Noise.

Carmen (32:17.079)
and create a symphony, I guess you'd say, of our own work. Now there are obviously, there are things that can help you do that. So your voice is a tool, your body is a tool, we've talked about that. You can have other tools and when you use them, just make sure they're always being used for a purpose. So one is the slide deck or if we want to call it cinematics or video, have really rich

Molly Geoghegan (32:23.364)
of sound.

Carmen (32:46.251)
very high res content that you're sharing and share it to cause an impact. So I always say you are the lead in your message. Any tool you use is a supporting cast. And if you bring up a slide for a reason, then it's gonna be memorable and people are going to talk about it afterwards. But you might have a slide in one section of your show and then you might turn it off for a few moments and

if a couple of stories or whatever it is and then it might come back and then it's relevant if it's up the whole time and it's a bright shining beacon behind you then potentially it's taking over from you when as I said you are the lead in your message and until you use this as a supporting cast. Now depending on the venue and how big it is sometimes you have the ability to include lighting

Molly Geoghegan (33:33.676)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (33:46.391)
You could include sound. So think about your favorite Netflix show or movie and just listen next time to the music that's playing, the score that's happening underneath everything that you're listening to and you don't even know it's happening, but it will be causing more emotion in your body. And without the music, the show seems quite different.

So again, in live speaking, can cause the same thing. Now the audience shouldn't really even know, they shouldn't be sitting there thinking, gee, this has great lighting or, that's an amazing soundtrack underneath. It just should immerse them in what's happening and cause the emotional reaction that you're looking for. So one more thing I know I'm talking a lot,

Molly Geoghegan (34:12.813)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (34:24.609)
Right.

Molly Geoghegan (34:37.065)
No, no, these are gold. These are gold. Keep going.

Carmen (34:39.743)
I just think so many people will come to me and say, just so you know, I don't really rehearse that much because I'm much better off the cuff. Like I get worse the more that I rehearse. And I would challenge you, anyone that's thinking, yeah, that's me, that's me, challenge you to think about, I always think about golf. I actually don't really play golf. My parents do and hopefully I'll learn one day. But I know that anyone that does play golf gets that.

Molly Geoghegan (34:49.549)
Sure.

Molly Geoghegan (34:55.725)
feeling it.

Carmen (35:09.567)
You can just play golf for fun and you can get okay at it and be getting reasonable scores and keeping up with your friends. And then you start enjoying it and you think, I'm gonna go get golf lessons. And then you get golf lessons and everything feels terrible. They're letting you to stand differently, hold the stick differently, all the things. And you're like, this is really awkward. And your game goes backwards for a period of time. Now at that point, there's...

Molly Geoghegan (35:32.907)
Yeah, becomes a chore.

Carmen (35:35.989)
two types of people. So one person's like, this is stupid, I was better without the lessons. And they just go back to the way they were doing it. And the other person digs in and continues to practice. And then at a certain point, everything turns around and their game just completely soars because now they're doing it the right way as their coaches taught them. And they're now used to it and now it feels normal. So.

Rehearsal is similar. When you start rehearsing, if you saw theater actors in their first rehearsals, you would never pay the amount of money you pay for the professional show to see the rehearsal, because it's not good. It's not like the polished finished product. And that's like a speaker. So if you're not going to rehearse, then you're missing out on crafting those signature moments we've been talking about.

Molly Geoghegan (36:12.139)
No.

Right, right.

Carmen (36:29.559)
because they only come out of rehearsal and they of course come out of experience and having the live audience there and understanding did that work, didn't that work and continuing to craft it and continuing to improve it. But if the talk isn't ingrained in you, then it's really hard to create the type of experience we're talking about today. it's hard to be

Molly Geoghegan (36:32.257)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (36:47.106)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (36:58.263)
present with the audience. And when you're present with the audience, that's when you can go off script, knowing that you're gonna easily get yourself back on script if it's right for the moment and whatever is happening live with the interaction that's in front of you.

Molly Geoghegan (37:04.951)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (37:13.549)
Yes, totally. I actually feel, I completely agree. I think the more familiar someone is with their content and how they're presenting it allows you to actually engage with the volume.

I'm actually gonna try it. What does it feel like if I move my body over here for this one part and, you know, click it, especially when you're dealing with a clicker and the slides coming up at different times. If something does go wrong and when something goes wrong, it's a live event or something's happening in the crowd or the audience, something's a little bit different than you expect, then you have so much more familiarity and room to work with that and that it can actually be integrated, sometimes even improved, right? Maybe make a new joke, like with whatever's happening, you know, there's a lot more

Carmen (37:55.777)
Yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (37:57.298)
room for flexibility once, you know, it's I think people are like, it's gonna be such a robot if I go like completely on the script. But once you really have that down, like in the way that I memorized my lines for, you know, whatever musical I was in, you know, then I'm like, then I'm able to have more fun with it because you there's less nerves around that. Even if you do have nerves, there's more of knowing you are able to take it as it comes. And that comes with experience to that's hard.

Carmen (38:23.061)
Yeah, absolutely. And as you said, definitely practice with the clicker and the slides. It's like a tech rehearsal in theatre. You need to practice with all the things that you're going to use.

Molly Geoghegan (38:33.036)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely dress rehearsal. we could, mean, that's so much gold there. So many good tips. I wanna ask you as Carmen, like when you started presenting and giving talks yourself, what is, yeah, what's, is there anything you do every time or is there kind of a, I guess a method, unspoken, unknown or unconscious that you kind of tap into to get yourself ready to present?

Carmen (38:59.327)
Well, interestingly enough, I clearly didn't do it before today's podcast, but warm up your voice. So, Warm up. So you're an instrument. of an athlete that, you know, is about to go out and play a sport. They warm up their body before they get on that pitch or whatever it is that they're on. And as a speaker, you need to do the same. You should warm up your body and your voice so that it's not warming up at the start of your show.

Molly Geoghegan (39:04.909)
Sure. Now you sound good.

Molly Geoghegan (39:12.545)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (39:18.081)
Yeah.

Carmen (39:28.247)
or presentation. So definitely that. actually, from a personal point of view, I actually go very quiet before I get on stage. I think that's maybe the introverted Carmen and I don't think it's a technique as such that you necessarily have to follow, but that for me works and it's, feel like, and I used to do it in theater as well. I feel like it's me conserving my energy because I know I'm about to expend a lot of energy out on stage.

Molly Geoghegan (39:56.684)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (39:58.231)
And breathing can really help. I, this is more what I would tell my clients. I also, get a little bit nervous before I go out for a big talk. And I used to also before I went out on the stage in theater, but it's, it's not nerves that are debilitating. It's nerves that add to that excitement. And I see it as a good thing because it

Molly Geoghegan (40:09.954)
natural.

Carmen (40:24.403)
It's energy that you're about to, that your body's getting ready that you can use when you're out on stage. Yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (40:30.827)
Yeah, my theater director used to say that nerves are a good sign because it's energy and you can put that somewhere. So get it, and you can alchemize that through your body and your voice. So it's okay to be nervous, yeah. Even Carmen Cedrino gets nervous, you guys. well, okay, I think it's time to open up the spice cabinet because I'm very excited to hear about some of the, let's kick it off with, if you have any, know, what's your biggest source of inspiration, I suppose?

Carmen (40:42.709)
lately.

Yeah.

Carmen (40:59.851)
So my biggest source of inspiration, yeah, well, especially at the moment, it's actually live theater. So I love going to live theater and just looking at what's possible. Even I would say music concerts as well. If you think of some of, know, Taylor Swift, for instance, her, that is a production, what she has done. And there are so many other examples of that.

Molly Geoghegan (41:00.621)
presentation or otherwise.

Molly Geoghegan (41:23.563)
Right. yeah.

Carmen (41:27.741)
Imagine if business conferences could start taking on that type of model and how much more exciting and interesting it could be for the attendees on the day. So yeah, but even local theatre, I've gone to a few, one of my really good friends is the leader of a school in Australia that is well known for drama and theatre.

Molly Geoghegan (41:36.725)
Right? Yeah, yeah.

Carmen (41:54.903)
So I've gone and seen some of their local productions and it's incredible what you can do now with the set and the lighting and just little, so there's little things I'll take where I'm like, that could be really easy to create and it wouldn't require the venue to have all of the bells and whistles for us. So looking for little things that can happen in theater that I can bring back to my clients where they're not in the upscale version.

Molly Geoghegan (42:14.338)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (42:23.079)
of what we're creating and they've just got to run with what the venue's got. There's so many things that we can do. So that's a great source of inspiration for me.

Molly Geoghegan (42:23.266)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (42:27.691)
Yeah. Yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (42:32.865)
Definitely, if you have never seen a theater production and you go to your community theater, there's no better way to witness how to do a lot with a little, especially because those smaller theaters are able to integrate sets in such creative ways, you will be astounded. You will be, so that is, take your kids to whatever it is, a Christmas carol at the end of the year. There's always something going on and I just think that's really fascinating to see how that set production, there's a lot of inspiration that can be pulled from there, very cool.

Carmen (42:42.615)
Carmen (42:48.988)
Yeah.

Molly Geoghegan (43:02.509)
Carmen, any favorite books, podcasts, recommendations that people, folks to follow for more presentation advice, stage presence, et cetera.

Carmen (43:14.327)
I actually, have a book here and this is a plug for someone else. I actually have not met him, but his name is Carmine Gallo, the man who wrote it. I know he does a lot of work out of Harvard, I think. But anyway, he wrote a book called The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs. And I read that a very long time ago and absolutely loved it. And what I found interesting was that Steve Jobs would rehearse like a theater actor, leading up to his big keynote.

Molly Geoghegan (43:24.044)
Yes.

Molly Geoghegan (43:41.165)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (43:44.075)
performances, he definitely did performances. And I know that he's well known for his speaking, it's not anything new that your audience is hearing most likely. But study him because I still think that no one in the business world has done it better since him. And he brought theatre to business and made a lot of money doing it.

Molly Geoghegan (44:07.445)
Yeah, I'll just piggyback and plug our series we're doing, which is studying every Steve Jobs keynote ever. So Mikey has that book. I haven't read it yet, but once we'll cap off the series with the book for sure, Carmen Gallo. Yeah, it's perfect. That's so interesting.

Carmen (44:14.271)
Amazing, so good.

Carmen (44:21.417)
Good, there you go. I have a second book here which is, it's not a speaking book but I love it for the storytelling. It's called The Ride of a Lifetime by Robert Iger. He was the CEO of Disney for a long time. He actually collaborated with Steve Jobs from a business perspective. I just think, yeah, the storytelling in his book is incredible and

Molly Geoghegan (44:27.308)
Yes, please.

Carmen (44:48.747)
That's the core of a really great keynote show is the storytelling and then of course how you bring that to life on stage through drama and theatrics.

Molly Geoghegan (45:00.641)
Yeah, and as we know, Disney and Pixar. Great story, yeah, such good, yeah. We've studied the Pixar's rules for storytelling. I mean, it doesn't get old, so. They're classics for a reason, right? It becomes classics for a reason. All right, favorite Ted Talk or presenter, living or I hear, of you, Steve Jobs fan for sure. Anyone that's really stuck with you over the years?

Carmen (45:03.923)
I believe in psychology.

Carmen (45:10.679)
No.

Carmen (45:14.315)
the right way. Yeah.

Carmen (45:22.933)
Yeah. Look, I actually loved this was probably me being a female leader in corporate and I was working a very male dominated industry. So I loved Sheryl Thamberg's TED Talk, Lean In. I mean, it's very simple from a presentation point of view, but yeah, she delivered it really well. It was a clear message and

Molly Geoghegan (45:38.125)
Totally.

Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (45:49.505)
Mm-hmm.

Carmen (45:51.817)
And it did, it will certainly cause that emotional reaction in me when I watched it the first time I shared it with a lot of my team, because a lot of them were also females. So yes, I really loved that one for a TED Talk.

Molly Geoghegan (45:55.746)
Mm-hmm.

Molly Geoghegan (46:05.933)
Yeah, again, classic for a reason or most viewed for a reason. We'll add it to our Ted Talkin' list. All right, and finally, we ask this to every guest, Carmen, you're getting up to do your next big keynote or maybe even, I suppose, the theme song for your upcoming podcast, which we will also plug in the Spice Cabinet, of course, and Illuminated Story. What song will be playing?

Carmen (46:10.963)
Yeah, absolutely.

Carmen (46:30.849)
So I'm speaking in about two weeks and when I walk up on stage, fame will be playing. No, no, this is back in the 80s probably. The movie fame or the theatre show fame. Yes, yes.

Molly Geoghegan (46:39.081)
Lady Gaga, right? No, what am wrong?

Molly Geoghegan (46:48.397)
yes, yes. I love it. Cut my Lady Gaga comment, John. But I was like, okay, yeah, LeFam. Yeah, yeah, also a performer. Yes. fun. And it's really gonna play, right? Like that's what you've submitted. That's awesome.

Carmen (46:54.475)
No, all good. Lady Gaga is amazing and there's lots of theatrics in what she does for sure.

Carmen (47:07.509)
Yeah, it's really gonna play as I'm walking up on stage.

Molly Geoghegan (47:10.507)
Sometimes we talk to people and they're like, I never get an opportunity. And we're like, ask the AV people because I can most, especially if like you have a good rapport with those folks, they're always excited to do something like that. So if that's an option, like you might not be aware that that's an option, but absolutely. And we used to sample the music until we had an issue with it. So just everyone, I will link it and go listen to Fame from the musical. Carmen, this has been a blast. Thank you so much.

Carmen (47:21.045)
Yeah, yeah, I love

Carmen (47:31.287)
you.

Yeah

Molly Geoghegan (47:40.279)
This is like such a fun combination of worlds with theatricality and building a story and that's just the ethos of presentation thinking. So any parting thoughts you want to leave with the presentation nation, presentation thinkers, we don't have a good name for our listeners yet.

Carmen (47:55.863)
look, I truly believe that you are not born with this skill, that you can absolutely learn it. So I think what Molly's doing on this podcast is incredible and there are just so many lessons that you can take and you've got to implement them though. So implement them and try them and rehearse and then you can be whoever you want to be.

up there, whether that's in business and you're convincing the business or the board to move forward with something or on stage in an industry conference or the world stage if you're looking to go that far with your speaking.

Molly Geoghegan (48:37.389)
Boom, another marked clip for pull quotes there. Thank you so much, Carmen. I'm sure we will find another opportunity to jump across time zones all the way to Australia. This has been such a blast. But, Presentation Nation, thanks for tuning in. And until we meet again, keep on pitching.