Making messaging PUNCHY with Emma Stratton

Mikey: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Presentation Thinking, the Storyteller's Study Club. This is your co host, Mikey Meduski, founder of Ghost Ranch Communications. I'm joined by my co host, your favorite, Molly Gagan. Molly, we have an exciting guest today.

Molly: Yeah, we got a book club episode, but it's a very special episode of Book Club because We have the author of the book that Mikey and I read and I, I listened to counts, right?

Emma Stratton, author of Make It Punchy, founder of Punchy, expert in B2B strategic messaging, amazing speaker. We got to hear you in London. Emma, welcome to the podcast.

Emma: Yay. Thank you for having [00:01:00] me. I'm so excited to be here.

Molly: This is, this is really fun to not only get to talk about your book, but talk about it with you and kind of get to make sure I guess everything we, you know, make sure we understood everything that you were, um, sharing in your book.

But it was, I got to say, so fun, especially like your whole ethos of make it punchy. And making things fun for strategic messaging, making your messaging stand out, obviously, is a huge point of it. And it was really fun to listen to you go through that. It was like one of the most fun audiobooks I've listened to.

Emma: That, that means a lot. That's, um, it was definitely a, a journey recording that audio book. You asked. I'm sure. It was basically four solid days in the scary closet under my stairs. I created like a panic room slash recording studio. And it was like a hundred degrees. You're crouched. Yeah. Oh. Oh God. Yeah.

Mikey: Just boiling and sweating and recording Harry Potter

Emma: situation. Yeah, it was. I don't know if you heard me [00:02:00] sweating in the audio, but, uh, no, I couldn't tell. I'm always thankful when people like you read the audio book and enjoyed it. I'm like, it was all worth it. Totally. Yeah, I know.

Mikey: I have both copies. I have the physical and then the audio book.

But Molly, I was telling you, and I think I told you in London, but. Your robot voice is hard to beat. So like hearing Emma actually speak to how really technical crappy messaging is, is written. It's way better with the audio book version. So fine job.

Music: So nice.

Mikey: Yeah. Oh my gosh. And did it come out last in 2024 officially?

Emma: Yeah, it officially came out in September of 2024.

Mikey: All right. And I, I mean, on LinkedIn, it is blowing up. I've seen people like best book of the year. It's already in people's like top 10 B2B marketing books ever, you know? So how, how has it been like rolling out a book? Was it, did it meet your expectations?

What was it like?

Emma: It did. It exceeded my expectations. I had kind of [00:03:00] low expectations, low expectations and also high ones, like really high ones are really low ones, but, uh, it went really well. I mean, My goal with the book was to make something super practical and helpful that anyone could use and get some good results from, make it really simple.

And I've been getting that feedback and just watching it naturally spread through word of mouth is amazing because I don't know so much of marketing and putting things out. It feels like just a lot of work. You're constantly just like putting stuff out and just hoping people listen and hear, but to see something kind of organically.

Spread and do its thing without me having to push it all the time is a beautiful thing as a marketer. Yeah.

Molly: Yeah. And Emma, I know you've been like, yeah, that besides being the founder of punchy for the last almost a decade, right? You have been in the branding and strategic messaging space for a long time.

So take us back just a little bit, like before we dive deeper into the book, um, of how you kind of [00:04:00] landed where you are as like, yeah, people reposting you as an expert on LinkedIn. It's a very, very cool journey.

Emma: Yeah, it's, it's random. If you had, if I had a time machine and spoke to my younger self that this is where I'd be, I'd be like, no way.

That makes no sense. Yeah, no, I I'm a typical creative person. I grew up drawing and writing just very natural English major and. I, the message I kind of heard from society, people around me, family was like, Oh, you're, you're really good at these things. Too bad. You're never going to make any money with that.

Right. Could you maybe think about being a scientist or a doctor? Exactly. Something like that. And I, you know, subconsciously that was there. I still was like, screw it. I'm going to major in English, creative writing nonetheless. And I did. And a lot of like joining the workforce was trying to figure out, okay, how am I going to make money?

with this talent I have, which is writing, but I don't really know. And so I moved around a lot. [00:05:00] I mean, I worked in publishing, I was a travel writer, I edited a magazine, I did PR, like I tried pretty much everything that English majors are supposed to do when they leave college and nothing really felt right, even though I enjoyed aspects and learned a lot.

And it was when I was living in the UK that I randomly saw a position to be a strategic writer at a brand design agency. And it was a global design agency that did packaging and brand for consumer packaged goods in Europe and the UK. So a lot of retail, a lot of things in grocery stores, but also train lines and sex toys and you know, weird, you know, shampoos, all that kind of stuff.

And. I thought that sounds cool. And so I ended up getting that job and I loved it. This idea of helping shape a brand and its personality to connect with a certain type of customer, I thought that was brilliant [00:06:00] and I got to write. packaging copy. So in the UK at the time, I feel like they were way ahead of the United States in terms of personality driven copy, especially in consumer.

There's just a lot of clever copy going on, on wrappers and things over there that you wouldn't really see in the U S. And I just, I love that. And so I did that for a couple years, you know, worked with the big companies like Unilever and P& G and, and all these products and I enjoyed it. But then also I felt like I got to this point where I was like, all right, I've been writing like glib headlines and.

I don't know. I just felt like, okay, is there anything else here than just writing cool copy and you selling toilet paper to the masses? And when, um, I decided to move back to the U S so I needed to get a new job, I figured, okay, let me go to an agency. Now I had a baby and agency life, you know, you might know in cities when you're [00:07:00] working on cool brands, it's like long hours.

Sometimes just, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Weekends. There's like a lot of things. And I was like, I need a quiet life. I need a short commute. I have a baby. That's my priority. So I just saw a listing for a job at a B2B marketing agency really close to the house I was going to be living in. And I met them and I was like, Oh, this is like a quiet agency.

They work on these boring business brands that no one's ever heard of. I thought, you know, this, this kind of suits where I am in my life. So I accepted a job and my first client was actually an enterprise data management software company that had just gone public large. They're still a well known company.

And they're like, this is going to be your client. And they gave me all this messaging. They're like, here, read it. And I was like, oh God, you know, I thought, ah, I'm sure B2B is going to be just like B2C. Right. And so. The exact same. Of course. Yeah. I know. And I was like, what the heck? [00:08:00] And it was this, other world that I was discovering this B2B software.

I was looking at the competitors. I'm like, wait, everyone talks like this. This makes no sense. And I kind of brought a lot of what I learned in B2C, connecting with humans, simple, brighter language. I brought it to this company and realized. Whoa, there are a lot of other companies that also need this kind of help.

And that's where I really saw a problem that could be solved that I felt I could solve really well. And kind of the rest is history. I sort of followed that and it led to me eventually starting my own business where I would only do that because that's all I wanted to do. And then growing punchy. And I feel like over the years, overall awareness and desire to be more human.

in your messaging among software companies. I feel like that has grown, you know, over the years as I've been kind of doing this work. So it's totally random that I'm [00:09:00] here doing this, but at the same time, it sort of feels like I was weirdly meant to do this work. So yeah, I was going to say it kind of actually written in the stars,

Molly: maybe from all along, starting with the English major.

Yeah, that's right. It all started with majoring in English. Yeah, totally. Man, marketers have such interesting backgrounds, specifically in this product marketing B2B and tech world. We love hearing the journey that brings people to there because I always feel like no matter what, those skills are useful.

And you're, and yes, certainly your experience with, um, yeah, editing and copywriting and, and then moving from B2C to B2B. I'm sure it was a trip. It really was.

Mikey: So as a consultant and a writer getting pulled into like more and more companies, I think eventually were people asking you to. Not only do it for them, but also maybe like, what are the tools so we can do this for ourselves?

Was that maybe an evolution for. Not only punchy, but maybe leading you to do more keynotes and book writing.

Emma: Yeah, you know, I'm helping people do it and it was just intuitive in my [00:10:00] head. Like it was easy for me and it was this thing happening in my brain. And then I'd be like, and people would be like, yay.

But then what I leave, what do they do? So I was aware that as I worked with teams and consulted with them, I would learn. Oh, wow. There is no. Best practice. Oh, people even within this team are talking about messaging differently and don't really have the same definition and they don't know what should be in a messaging framework.

And I started noticing that this was something that people were struggling, not just the task of writing, but even how do we approach messaging as a company? What's the right way? So I noticed that and I thought, yeah, I want to teach people what I've learned. So part of it is me trying to figure out what it is I do in my brain, you know, that step of articulating what you actually do and sharing it.

But funnily enough, the, the impetus for. Actually getting into training was a company. I [00:11:00] actually tendered to do some messaging work for them and they got back and they're like, thanks. We're actually going to go a different direction, but any chance you could train 20 of our products, marketers, how to do messaging.

And I thought, huh. You know what? I actually, I think I can. And so I created this course for this company and it went really great. And then I thought, this is so fun and think about how many more people I can help by teaching rather than just doing it for them. And so that really got into training and giving keynotes and ultimately writing a book that outlined everything I teach in training.

Mikey: Yeah. Yeah. And you talk in the book about. Writing for one, you know, like when we have so many different personas in marketing, it's almost overwhelming. And then we produce like super generic stuff. So I love your tip about just like. Almost like you're writing an email to one specific person. And that really helps me.

Who did you write this for? Like, who's that? Who are you thinking about?

Emma: I just picture one of the [00:12:00] many product marketers or marketers I've met over the past few years. I've had actually been lucky to have so many conversations with folks like at conferences or even when I'm consulting. and similar questions, right?

The questions that people have just so many similar questions. So I, I know my reader because I've hung with them so much. So yeah, I would just picture people that I've met that, that makes it a lot easier to write a book when you actually deeply know who you're writing it for and you really understand the things that they struggle with and, and, and what they need to kind of make some progress.

I think it'd be very hard to write a book If you didn't sort of know who you're on, just like messaging, right? You got to know who your audience is. Throwing some

Molly: spaghetti at the wall, hoping it sticks. Yes. No, I think that's why it has been so successful. And I'm curious. I feel like you were kind of on the beginning of noticing that gap in B2B messaging.

Just how like. [00:13:00] Bland everything sounded, how jargony it probably sounded. Everything at the same. I love your jargon chapter specifically, but did you feel like, yeah, this was like a need that was almost like unspoken and maybe like probably undervalued for people to be like, Oh my God. Yeah. We actually need help with this and it'll help everything else around us in our, in our company processes.

Emma: Yeah, you know, it's funny, when I started Punchy, people said, and I mention this in the book, people are like, duh, that's not a good idea for this, this audience. Tech companies don't care that much about words, they just care about the tech or they're not going to invest in that. You know, you should just be a branding agency.

And I do remember in the beginning, I spent a lot of time just kind of shining a light on the problem, like giving talks, putting things on social media just to kind of say, Hey, this isn't working. And I remember kind of early people responding, a couple of marketers and, and I realized at that point, ah, there are people who care about this.

It's [00:14:00] not everyone. Right. But there are marketers and there are founders. You know, the founder who struggles because they can't friggin pitch or explain what they do. They get tongue tied and twisted that that is so common, you know, or marketers who are at an early stage startup trying to put out materials and they're like, I don't even know.

We haven't even described like, what is this thing? And I realized, Hey, there are people that do value this. And I'm only going to talk to them. I'm not going to waste my breath on all the people who think words are dumb and want to use the jargon, but I'm realizing there are people that this is resonating with.

And so I've always spoken to people who get it, who are on that sort of wavelength, which, which makes it easier. Yeah.

Mikey: It also seems like over the last decade or two, there's so much more saturation and product parity that it's. Now, it's just overwhelming as a, as a buyer, it's like, shit all [00:15:00] looks the same to me, you know, and so if someone says it in a way that makes you feel seen, you have this really good story about when you were young and you didn't want to look at your checking account, you would tell me about that and like maybe the power of emotion being real and maybe that how those breakthroughs help us Maybe stand out in a crowded pack.

Emma: Yeah. I mean, a lot of the, the jargon, the boring B2B, uh, language that we see out there, everyone sounds the same and it's a product of, I think originally someone did it to sound smart, right? I'm going to use these big words. It sounds smart and innovative and then it just happened again and again. And then people watch everyone doing it and now everyone's just doing it.

Cause you feel like that's what you should do. And which is. You know, ridiculous, but B2C understands emotion, right? Hey, people are making emotional buying decisions. And so, I always tell people, can you be real with your customer and your messaging? IE, stop [00:16:00] polishing and sanitizing and corporatizing the problem that you solve.

Just say it like they would say it at a barbecue, right? Just say it. as it really is because that makes the pain more relatable, instantly relatable, and they will feel something. So the story I have in the book was when I was fresh out of college, English major, working in publishing, making like no money at all.

I, um, was really, you know, not good with my personal finances and I knew I only had like five bucks in my account or negative dollars. So I had a fear of checking my account balance, even though I should have been really good at it. Yeah. I was like, there's nothing of a bad news there. I'm never going to do it.

So avoid it. Yeah. Yeah, I was like, let me just avoid this completely. And of course, that was not a good method. Then a couple of years later, there was a startup bank that had this headline that said, take the fear out of checking your account balance. And I was like, whoa, and it [00:17:00] stopped me in my track. I was like, who is this company who has been in my brain and knows me?

Because. I actually never admitted to anyone out loud that I was afraid to check my business, uh, my account balance. And I'm not even sure if I had even articulated to myself, I am afraid of checking it. I was just avoiding it. But when I read that, I was like, ah, that's me. I do that. So I kept reading and it talked about.

You know, personal finance being hard, whatever. And he even made a little quote, uh, in parentheses, it was like, we're looking at you English majors. And I was like, Oh my God. I was like, Oh my God, this is my bank. I felt totally seen. And even though I actually was not in the market for a new bank or app, like I was not clearly, I was not into that.

I was like, this company might be able to help me. They understand. And so when you can keep it real and talk about an actual real problem, the way a customer's thinking about it, they might not have even articulated it, but they feel it, you connect with [00:18:00] them and you also start to kind of subconsciously build trust.

I thought about this company. Huh, you know, they might actually have something for me because they get it. So if you can prove to a customer that you get them, that you get their world, and you can do that just by being honest and real about the problems that they're facing and how you can help them solve it.

People will be more likely to kind of trust and lean in and listen and read a little bit more. I mean, the last thing about that pain point that they touched on, fear of checking your account balance, just by reading it, my mind jogs my memory. back to that moment, you know, where I'm like, Oh, like on a Friday, like, Oh, can I afford 5 beers?

Like, Oh, I don't, I don't want to look, I'll just buy them anyway. You know, it just took me back to that place and kind of reminded me, Hey, that was a problem. And so when you keep it real and you relate to a specific concrete event or feeling. Your reader [00:19:00] kind of goes there too, and that fans the flames of desire for a solution, right?

So, yeah, builds rapport.

Mikey: Yeah. And you dispel the myth that, hey, that only belongs in the consumer space, but actually B2B is. Just as stressful, maybe even more emotional because you're making this decision and you're kind of, your job's on the line if it goes south, right? Yes! And so there's way more fear, way more emotion.

Yeah, yeah. It's heightened, so we need to like tap into that and your book has so much gold, like I know marketers love frameworks. You have so many like awesome starters and

Music: what'd

Mikey: you say is, is VBF the one, like, is that what you're hearing back from people? Like I want it tattooed on my hand. Also SMIT on the other hand, but

Emma: one, um, head of products marketing actually emailed me and said that he wanted to tattoo VBF on all of his products.

It needs a little placard

Molly: on it, all the desks.

Emma: Yeah. I think, you know, VBF definitely resonates with [00:20:00] people a lot. That's the one that gets talked about a lot and say like you would at the barbecue. Those are probably the two biggest ones that people talk about the most.

Molly: Yeah. Okay. Will you take us in a little bit?

I mean, I suppose it's in the book, so people just give us a teaser, but VBF, I heard you talk about it in London at your workshop, which was really fun. And sent Mikey and I into like a little like total brain noodling session. Yeah. Um, but it stands for value benefit feature. And what led you, like after I'm sure many, many repetitions of helping people with their strategic messaging, what led you to this framework?

And can you walk us through it a little bit?

Emma: Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest problems in tech that I came up against again and again is people just talking about the features being stuck in the features really common in tech because we're a lot more technical companies and so it just feels very natural to just lead with the tech and this is what makes us different.

And so I needed a way to kind of show people how this [00:21:00] wasn't the best way and, and how to fix it. So again, I think it started with that first course that I taught to that company that was like, can you teach us how to do messaging? I was like, how can I help them understand because they're very technical.

And, uh, so the idea is messaging, a messaging framework involves features and benefits and value propositions, right? But each has a slightly different role to play in messaging. They have different jobs to do. And while they're related to each other, they're really different. And it's important in a message that it comes in the right order that you lead with a value, which is why should someone care about this?

Then follow with the benefit, which talks about what you're going to get or do, which will give you that value prop. And then finally end with the how, which is the features. So it's this idea of. We're going outside in for an audience rather than going inside out, leading with the features and the value coming at the end.[00:22:00]

And in the book, I use a example of a blender. And when you apply VBF to commercial B2C non tech things, it makes a ton of sense. And you can see, Oh, right. Of course we should be leading with value, not the features. But for some reason in tech, we I think people don't see it as clearly. So defining the difference between these three, I think that's another thing I learned is that even marketers, but definitely people working at companies mix up features with benefits and mix up benefits with value propositions.

And so just getting clarity around the difference between them I felt was important and just gave people a framework for how to actually talk about features in a compelling way.

Molly: Yeah. And have you, how has your reaction with this been over the years, like consulting with people? Is it like, I'm sure it's a tricky and can probably be, especially for a company that's really established and in their ways, is that like a hard thing to like dig through and undo for people?

Emma: Oh, well, [00:23:00] you know, VBF, people are very receptive to VBF. That's the thing that's kind of been a nice surprise that it makes sense to people. So they're like, okay, where people get stuck, I think is actually in the words themselves, which is kind of a separate issue where people are kind of like, but I want to say this, but what about that?

And I want to.

Music: Yeah.

Emma: Yeah. I want to say all the things in that sentence. Can we add that in to that benefit? And those are the things that I see that I struggle against the most with people. Those desires to like, we want to say it all and in three sentences. Those things can, can be hard depending on the team you're working with.

Molly: Yeah, Mikey and I loved specifically one of my favorite examples. I think it's in your chapter five where you're like, yeah, stand for one thing. Because if you say everything, you say nothing, kind of. You have a great example about, um, your kid getting, All of the flavors of an ice slushy, you [00:24:00] know, and you pour all the colors in and you're like, What the blue raspberry in the cherry?

And I totally related to my own childhood of doing this, creating rainbow. And then it just melts into this brown, really weird flavor with like, vanilla might be in there or something like, who knows? But it just, that's such a visceral and great metaphor for if you are adding all the words, like you're really adding none of the words and it's just going to be like a word salad.

At the end.

Emma: It's true. Great example. It's true, but people still want to do it. They just have something in us, you know, we just, we just want to do it. Yeah.

Molly: And I think that's what's so helpful about your book. It's truly meant for like a work along, you know, if anyone's listening and struggling with their messaging, there's so many ways.

It's not just like, Oh yeah, make this a little punchier, make this shorter. Like you have ways to single out, yeah, with the smit, the single most important thing. All of your sentences start with an active word. Can you get it down? I love the science examples you have of, you know, people can only understand an average of eight words per sentence.

And then after that, the longer a sentence is, the [00:25:00] less of the readability goes. Is that a word, understandability? The less, the less people can, uh, take it in, in a, in a quick way, which is how all advertising is going to be. And when people are shopping, they're not going to be able to like understand what you're trying to say.

I am so guilty of creating long run on since Mikey and I both are. We love to say we love verbose to be ose clever. We love to be verbose. And, um, so it, so I felt like you were talking to me. I was like, I suffer with this problem , and it's certainly such useful, such useful things. And now a message from our sponsors.

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Molly: Well, have you talked to, have you ever worked with like copywriters that are, you know, implementing some of these frameworks or something like that?

Emma: Yeah, I think a lot of copywriters have bought the book and mm-hmm . Have, have appreciated it. I mean, I think. A lot of copywriters appreciate that holistic approach to creating a messaging framework.

Mm hmm. That, you know, that's helpful. Even some copywriters who never offered messaging services just offered copywriting in a certain industry or a certain type, and they're like, oh, wow, maybe I could start offering this. So that's been really cool.

Molly: Yeah.

Emma: Kind of helping folks like that.

Molly: I want to call out one of my favorite things, I said this to Mikey as well, was your jargon [00:27:00] chapter and how I just love calling out.

I think Elliott Rayner did this in his workshop at PMA as well. Where, especially in tech and software tech and talking about AI, there's so much of unleash, unlock, like, release the power of the beast, you know, this crazy, and you, you called that out in a really fun way and the way you are able to categorize jargon and how to like, how to find, hunt for it, find it, and then replace it with that, how would you say it at a barbecue?

type of phrase instead. How did you go about, yeah, tackling jargon, which I'm sure people are very, very attached to, you know, in B2B tech?

Emma: Yeah, I mean, I think because I was an outsider, like, I did not grow up in tech. I didn't work at a tech company beforehand, and I think that helps as a fresh outside perspective.

I'm just like, what the heck does that mean? Like, why are we using these words? So it was very easy for me to just see how bananas some of these phrases are [00:28:00] and these words that this industry loves, like accelerate, you know, revolutionize all of those words. So they always seemed ridiculous and bombastic to me.

And when I would kind of share it, it seemed to resonate, right? Because people do hate. Jargon. Like, generally, people don't like it. No one's like, oh, I love jargon. No one would admit it. But we use it. So

Music: yeah,

Emma: and then when I would speak about jargon, sometimes people would be like, well, but my, my audience is technical and they like jargon.

It'd always be a few people trying to trip me up and like get me to, I don't know, prove me wrong on the jargon. Like they wanted their jargon. So that's when I had to go deeper on jargon and really kind of outline the three different types of jargon. Right. There's like, there's the basic jargon, right.

Which is like the big business words that could apply to any industry, like revolutionize, synergize, like accelerate all those big, silly ones. [00:29:00] And those just do not need to exist. We can get rid of them every time. Right. Then we have product marketing type jargon, which isn't as. that. Okay. Like streamline is not, is not like revolutionize.

It's, it's not the worst thing in the world and it's okay to use it, but we become overly dependent on those as well. Right. And they kind of lose their meaning and it's like, what are we actually saying here? And then we have industry jargon, technical jargon, which is specific things, you know, like rest API and stuff like that.

And there's a place for those as well. I'm not saying get rid of all of your important industry terms, but it's about being thoughtful and using them when they're needed and not when they're not needed. So thinking, is this something that's going to be. So, yeah, I had to [00:30:00] go deep and get nuanced about jargon, but I think the worst defenders of jargon are typically words that everyone can safely delete.

From their brains and we'll all just be fine.

Molly: Yeah. Yeah. Still means the same. Yeah. I loved your categorization and internal lingo you name as well, which I know we're guilty of. You've said it to your coworkers. It's become a word and you're on Slack and then you put it on an external paper and you're like, Oh, it's like saying an inside joke to someone that doesn't understand it.

Exactly. And that happens. It doesn't translate.

Emma: All the time and also naming, I mean, it happens with names of products and yeah, internally you hear it so much that you're like, Oh, of course this is the name. And then new people are like, what?

Molly: Yeah. So even just kind of examining jargon and, and hunting that down can be one of the first steps for, you know, just cleaning up your, getting more to the core of what your message could be.

Yeah. Right. Great.

Mikey: I think you give us permission or marketers [00:31:00] and, and writers permission and, and like acknowledgement that the stuff is hard and, and that it's okay to kind of like screw up at first. And, um, I think the fact that what is it like chapter seven, until we get into actual, like writing the actual value prop goes to show like how much.

Strategy needs to go into all this before sort of like pen hits paper. Can you just like the, the fiddling, I think it's like necessary fiddling is a word, is another like, it's my new band name. Yeah. But I love the idea that like there may need to be some distilling and reorganizing and can you tell us about just the process of getting to a, something that's actually polished.

Emma: Yeah, I'm a huge fan of separating strategy from the writing, which is what I did in the book. It's like, yeah, six chapters we haven't written yet. It's like, nope, we're not writing it. So much of messaging is actually strategy, aligning, deciding what are we going to stand for? What are the most important pieces of our story?

And [00:32:00] that's hard. And then once you figure that out, then you get into the writing and think, well, how do I best say that? And how do I make it punchy, et cetera? The number one problem I think that people face when they do messaging and what makes it feel so hard is they just try to go straight to the writing.

Music: Yeah.

Emma: Straight to the messaging blank page, like let's do this. And then that's where the run on sentence comes from. That's where all the confusion and what do I talk about? Because you haven't decided on the strategy and it's really hard to do them both at once. And so when you're doing something that's so complicated, like messaging a complex product to complex audiences, you know, who are sophisticated and all that, and you're doing it with stakeholders other people who need to be involved or align or bought in.

If you first work on the strategy and you can bring in people to get alignment and make sure you're on the right track, you can kind of test ideas, make those hard decisions around what is the [00:33:00] one thing we're going to stand for? What is going to be our value proposition? What are the most important three benefits of all of the many wonderful things we can do?

That's all the kind of hard thinking that needs to happen and you can also play around and fiddle. With, well, what if we stood for this or what have we stood for that? You can play around with it without having to like write a whole thing and then let's change it. Let's rewrite another thing and let's rewrite another thing, which can be really demoralizing.

You can fiddle around with strategy and concepts and then when you feel like, yes, this is the direction we want to go, then you can write and it makes writing a lot more fun because you know what you're supposed to write about. Now, you can just focus on saying it in a good way. So, you know, I think a lot of times everyone's trying to just dive in and get it done in one go.

And I get it. We're busy and we don't have enough time. But even messaging is, is about revisions. I mean, Mikey, you, Molly just said, you know, we're really [00:34:00] verbose and, and write long sentences. Most of us are, I mean, that is kind of the default setting is verbose and long sentences. You write the long sentence and then you think, what's the most important thing in the sentence?

What am I really trying to say? And then you can shorten the sentence. And so writing is a process and coming up with something tight takes a couple steps. And so just trying to preach to people, like separate the strategy from the writing. And hopefully that makes the process less painful, but even revisions when it comes to sharing the messaging, hopefully it's not going to be like, You know, a bloodbath of red ink and torn apart by people because a lot of feedback on messaging is really strategy feedback.

Mikey: Right.

Molly: And Mikey, it makes me think of when I'm Doing an email newsletter, this is a common instance, and I'll just be like, yeah, what do we want the subject, go straight to the subject line or something, and I'm like trying to arrive at, well, the clever and punchy subject line right away, [00:35:00] whereas I'm like, wait, who are we emailing, what do we want them to do, what's the ultimate CTA, and they have to be so short, especially an email subject line.

You only get a couple of, it's like less than a tweet characters, you know? So it's, if you put in that time ahead of time, it always ends up going much easier. It does. And I would argue that your book makes a case for this. Like if you put in that legwork up front, not only can you like apply it to different products, different launches and services in the future, but that muscle will get easier the more you repeat it.

How you identify who is this for the A plus customer? You have great questions for that. The VBF. And then, like, write those paragraphs. Don't be afraid of, like, getting big so you can pare down. Don't just try to get to the, like, the perfect shiny thing at the end. It has to go through that process.

Emma: It does.

No one does it. Like, it's impossible. It cannot be done. So don't try. Yeah,

Molly: I can't do it. It's very rare. I think sometimes people are like, Oh, well, you can, like, people make funny tweets or it's like a funny little thing you just arrive at. And I'm like, Oh, that's actually like. You know, uh, that's what comedians are for[00:36:00]

Yes. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And we're like, as writers, if you're trying to be strategic, it's, you need to start big so you can pare down. That's right. I really, yeah. Necessarily fi, necessary fiddling is, uh, we'll, we'll get that band going and credit you.

Mikey: I love it.

Molly: So fun. I'll be on keys.

Mikey: Yeah. And Molly, as you know, and Emma, we're in the midst of.

SKO seasons, it's kickoff. You're like a lot of messaging being debuted, hopefully, you know, with some, some energy behind it. I know you have a great quote about like zillions of messaging docs collecting dust, you know, because like they just simply weren't adopted. What have you seen? What, what are recommendations to actually get people pumped about?

The new messaging and how to roll it out better.

Emma: Yeah. I mean, so there's a couple of ways. The first one is getting alignment and I'm talking about bigger messaging, not like messaging for a small release. I'm talking about kind of big, a big messaging release. The first is getting that kind of buy in [00:37:00] from your colleagues in different departments, right?

Sales, customer success, um, et cetera. And that comes from actually involving them in the process, right? So if there's any way you can bring those people in during that strategy phase and involving them, that's going to help them feel a part of the process, which will make them more likely to. Want to use it, right?

People don't want to use something that's just been like slapped on their desk. They've had nothing to do with it, right? They want to be a part of it. So. Getting other departments teams involved in the creation is a great thing in any way you can do that. But then when you share it out to the wider groups or organization, I like kind of making, make it a splash out of it, right?

Don't just be like, Oh, here's a link to the new. New Google Doc, like WWA messaging, you know? Yeah. That's not it. You kind of wanna make something out of it. So could you do a presentation where maybe you share Yeah. A presentation where you share a bit of the journey, right? What [00:38:00] kind of led up to the messaging?

Right? What's. That's the, the accelerated story of how it came about, you know, customer quotes, adding a few things and then revealing the messaging and then having Q and a after is a great way to give people the context. So it's not just a bunch of disjointed words on a page. They can understand here's where we're going as a company.

Here's what we learn and here's how it manifested in messaging. And then another thing I always suggest to teams when we create messaging is, you know, can you get. Maybe the marketing team together and do kind of like a jam session, like a working session with playing around with applying the messaging to materials.

So, Hey, let's try and write like an outbound email. That is about, you know, benefit to around that concept or, Hey, what might some ad headlines look like now that we've changed our value proposition? And that's just a nice way to kind of have a bit of that connective tissue from here's the strategy to [00:39:00] here is actually the people who have to use it so they can ask questions as well and also start to take ownership of it themselves.

So those are kind of like three different ways I think you can kind of make something of their messaging. I

Mikey: love that.

Molly: SKOs are a unique opportunity, like people want to be part of the story too, so like bring them along. It's an internal thing. Let them know how you got there. Yeah. And then they're in it.

Mikey: Messaging is also, you, you talk about like different altitudes, so that obviously the one message, it's a framework for a reason. It's not just like, here's what to say, but you give them some lateral movement ability to, to use it in the right messaging for the right reason. And so I love. I love that analogy.

And I guess as you're rolling it out, I assume, you know, you're probably like tailoring it, Oh, I'm going to talk to CS, you know, a little differently than like solutions consulting it when it comes to this messaging framework, they probably are pulling different parts from it based on who they're talking to and at what stage of the pipe or whatever.

Emma: Yeah. Awesome. [00:40:00] Yeah. It's, uh, altitude is a, is a nuance, right? Altitude is, I think one of the most important parts of messaging and something that people miss a lot. And it's just, as you say, like the messaging needs to have a different altitude depending on who you're talking to. And that's really applicable to emails.

Any kind of a communication you're writing for someone really, but it's about meeting someone where they are and really thinking how much do they know, right? What's kind of the right level for them. And it'll be different. And a sophisticated tech buyer who's bought loads of things will be different from, you know, a kind of business buyer who's never bought big software before and isn't super techie, right?

You would have to tailor your message differently, different altitudes based on that. So. I'm a big fan of altitude and kind of waking people up to it because I think a lot of companies struggle. They put things out at the wrong altitude all the time. You know, that's why it doesn't connect. And

Molly: with that kind of [00:41:00] note, how do you, we know you've been speaking for a number of years and crafting your own presentations.

Like how do you implement your own strategic messaging? Um, into those decks and kind of practice what you preach when you go on stage.

Emma: Yeah. I think so. The rule of three. So, you know, I talk about three, right? Three benefits. Rule of three. Three. Yeah. So when I'm giving a talk, I always have three things that I teach.

Like there's like three takeaways always, you know, there's, there's one core idea that I want to share. And then there's three key teachings that shed light on that, that one idea. So that's sort of how I structure. It's a very much like VBF. If you think about it, I have like the one idea and then the three.

Yeah. And, and that way people feel like they're learning, they are learning a lot, but they're not being overwhelmed with. Too much stuff like more. I've seen things where people are sharing like eight [00:42:00] learnings and I'm like, well, you're like, ah, it's too much, you know, like stop even it could be the most brilliant content, but if it's too much, people can't absorb it.

So I very much kind of keep that. Punchy, like keep it tight because people don't, can't absorb too many things. So, VBF is my structure. And then I'm very much about one headline, like you should be able to just say it in the headline on the slide, which I know is, is. It's good practice, but I'm like, let's not put too many words.

Let's have a nice picture. And you know, I like GIFs or GIFs, GIFs, but I'm obsessed with GIFs as well. Yeah. So

Music: yeah,

Emma: that's what I kind of do for my own talks. Something catchy. Yeah. I

Molly: love it. And we love to ask here on Presentation Thinking, obviously we, Ghost Ranch puts together presentations all the time.

What is your relationship like with PowerPoint or Google Slides? What's your slide platform of choice?

Emma: I love Google Slides. Like [00:43:00] I'm a Google girl. I use all their stuff. I love it. And of course, when I speak at certain conferences, they want it in PowerPoint. So I do have PowerPoint and now I don't do my slides.

I have other people doing them, but I know that PowerPoint is like good for a lot of animations and stuff, but I don't care. I don't like using it. I like Google Slides. No, I will. Yeah, I will have like a, the PowerPoint file, but I will always open it in Google because I'm just more comfortable there. So that's just more me.

But again, I'm not into the visuals. I'm really like, what is the headline on the slide? And maybe I'll have some ideas for gifts, but then, you know, I let someone else make it pretty.

Mikey: And at this point, you've, you've written a damn book, you've, like, I can't imagine you're leaning heavily on your notes. Do you, do you even utilize, like, this, the, like, the talk track area in G slides?

Emma: I've never used them, but I have them in case something goes horrifically wrong.

Molly: Sure, sure,

Emma: yeah. I have [00:44:00] some, like, panic attack on stage, like, they're there, but I've never used them. You know, I've seen There's conflicting advice about anything and I've seen some experts saying like, Oh, don't like memorize your script and, you know, be natural, use your notes.

For my talks, I memorize scripts. I just do. For me. I just get, say it exactly how I want. I just practice it and I give it when I'm teaching in front of a group with slides, I I'm free form there. But when I give talks, I like to come up with my own script and memorize it and, and deliver it. But. I don't know if that's what most people do.

Do

Mikey: you practice that out loud, like in the hotel room before, or just like read it in your head? Okay. I

Emma: do. I practice it. I practice it. I think, yeah, the VBF one. I've only done that. Yeah. It was like the second time I'd done the VBF one in London. The first one was in San Francisco and for like a day before I was just [00:45:00] saying it again and again and again.

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe one day I'll get to the point free forming, but I just feel more confident. Sort of memorizing

Mikey: it.

Emma: We've heard both. I would say

Molly: that because you, like, I think memorizing isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially because you are such a good strategic messenger and a writer that it already is at the level where you'd say it as you would as a barbecue, that it's like very chill, laid back, and like accessible language to whoever you're talking to.

It's dependent on the audience, of course, but I mean, that's way different than someone just memorizing the script as that you, it's different when you write it down versus when you say it out loud. So I would say that because you're such a good strategic messenger, it makes sense to me that you kind of memorize that flow that you're getting into.

Emma: I know it sounds bad, like to say like, Oh, I memorized this script, because when you hear a script, you think dry, you think kind of like, you know, stilted. And yes, you're right. I write in a very conversational way. Yeah. I write like I. So, so I can do [00:46:00] that, but I think it is more about being thoughtful about what you're going to say and how you're going to say it.

I like to think about that. I like to add some levity when I can jokes like these things are, because that's what I like to see. I just basically create like, what do I like to see? And then I, I do something like that.

Mikey: Molly, I knew it was, there was gonna be some levity. Uh, last, the first year I saw Emma in London, I was like way up front and the first, the very first slide had a sex toy on it.

Like, right, you just like, I was like, Oh man, this is going to be a really fun talk. Yeah. And it was. And then this past year, like I said in the back of the room, and I don't think I've ever seen more hands going up, like taking, taking pictures of your slides, Emma. And I think the one thing that works really well that I wish I could do more of is.

But do this, not this, and you give just like very straight up, really teachable examples of bad and then better, you [00:47:00] know, don't use this word, try this word instead or inside out versus outside in and that sort of thing. So yeah, love your different slide types and structure and people get to know like, Oh, this is one of her teaching moment slides.

I'm going to take a picture and it's really helpful.

Emma: And it's the, I was benefited, like I've created training courses, which are on decks. And so I'd already created those before or evolutions of those before I even got into public speaking. So I already had teaching slides that I'd figured out. So I was like, Oh, I can, yeah, I can use some of these teaching slides and the yes, no examples.

Ever since I've been doing them and I, I started doing them in my brand days, people always love those because it helps them bring it to life. Like it makes it concrete for them. So anyone who's listening, if you're trying to teach anything, if you can show like, here's what good looks like, here's what not so good looks like.

It really helps people kind of grasp exactly what you're saying.

Molly: Yeah. Show it exactly what you're, show it, don't say it. [00:48:00] Oh, I love it. Yeah, no, that's so good to hear. Well, Mikey, I think it's about time to open up the spice cabinet. What do you think? Yes,

Mikey: we're here.

Molly: Emma, this is our rapid fire of, uh, just things we want to hear from you, advice and resources.

Yeah. First of all, I mean, obviously go by Make It Punchy. out on, uh, anywhere books are sold, right? Or on, listen to it like me, but any other resources that you've really liked in the, like in working in this space for people wanting to improve their strategic messaging, any books or podcasts? It's funny. I

Emma: don't read books on what I do at all.

Yeah. That's how people learn. Yeah. I mean, I like, okay, I'll mention a really old school one. I mean, it's very old school. It's called On Writing Well, which is the classic. Is it Zisner? I've got it on my, is it, is his first name William? Wait, hold on. William Zinser, On Writing Well. It's actually a classic.

It's one of the classics. I mean, this is like harking back to my English major days, but anyone who really [00:49:00] wants to kind of go deep on writing. It's a great book. I, I really love that one. That's a classic. Um, in terms of things today, I'm huge April Dunford fan. So I'm a fan of all of her books. Her obviously awesome was kind of instrumental in my life and sales pitch is equally amazing.

I love her style. I love her writing style. Her presentations are amazing. She's such a good storyteller. Yeah, she's just awesome. So big fan of April's. Yeah. So those would be kind of my, my, my recommendations.

Molly: I love it. All right. Well, if you, and that, I hear that a lot when, you know, people are like, I actually don't listen or consume anything within the space.

But I would say that, you know, things outside of the space also contribute to your work. So any favorite books or podcasts outside of strategic messaging, what are you, what are you listening to or consuming? Any shows even?

Emma: Oh, gosh. Well, I mean, I'm really into [00:50:00] like personal development and, uh, mindset and spirituality.

So I'm into all kinds of books like that. Let's see, a book that I really, really loved, um, I read years ago, but it was really big for me was, um, Jen Sincero's You Are a Badass at Making Money. Oh yeah. And it was a book all about money mindset and how to cultivate one and overcome a poor money mindset, which I had, uh, a really bad one.

And she's hilarious. She is just so funny and it's such a good read, but it has all this wisdom in it and it really helped me. So that's a book I would recommend, um, that I really love. That's a favorite.

Molly: Especially if people are related to your experience, which I know I did of being avoidant of checking your bank account.

Oh yeah, that's it. Well, that's the, that's where it all comes

Emma: from, money mindset. Yes. Totally, totally.

Mikey: Oh, I love it. What's, what are you excited for in 2025 [00:51:00] for, and what's in store for, for punchy. co? Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Emma: Yeah, well, I mean, for Punchy, it is really just continuing to train teams, consult, you know, reach more awesom